Last I heard, George was killing the APA due to lack of interest. I
tried to get the people who submit to the APA to contribute to CQ and
never heard either way.

Pat
--
How many angels can you fit on the head of a pin?
"I think the answer honestly depends on whether you're a journeyman
or a master class, and what con you're doing it for." - M. Mountain


Pat Ritter

Webmistress -- Lunatic Phrynge
http:/LunaticPhrynge.org

Everyone
First let me say that I want to apologize to the past editors of the CQ. It
was my belief that the problems with the CQ were their lack of understanding
of what was needed. I was wrong the problem with the CQ was and still is
the lack of caring from the people it is to serve.

I have been a member of the ICG since CC-3 when Janet Wilson Anderson asked
Marty Gear if she could start a California chapter.

I have been the archivist since CC-4 and the head of the Patrick Kennedy
Memorial Library since it was named, and the holder of the archives since
before that.

In that capacity I have yelled begged and pleaded for support from the
members of the ICG each year not for money as I footed the bills from my own
pocket until two years ago but for items to include and have for those
archives. These cries mostly have gone unnoticed.

I took the CQ because I felt that if some one ran it as hard as it should
that the items would be there to make it work. I WAS WRONG!

The problem with the CQ is the people it is to serve, you the members of
the ICG. Even in this time of trouble the ICG as a whole is not there, it is
made up of several people and a list of names that we can not even take the
time to correct.

I would like to thank the person who saw my personal problem and was able to
help the ICG and in turn me. But that is part of the problem, one person
carrying the weight of this organization. Instead of a team pulling
together.

Which brings me to address the proposal before the board. It is wrong. The
ICG needs more than one afterthought a year it needs to have its members
informed and we (me included) have failed. Yes I kept my word to see to it
that the CQ was up to date and with the year 1999 issue it will be as I said
and promised but what this is nothing it is just me and the staff I was
lucky enough to have putting together a poor version of a real CQ.

It is the same several people covering for the members who don't care enough
to take two hours of their time to see to it that their Quarterly is filled
with the items needed to make it worth opening.

What makes any of us believe that an annual will be better cared for or that
the information needed will be given to the members in a timely fashion?
Why should we believe this or any publication will be better cared for by
the people needed to supply the information.

When I took over the CQ I sent e-mail to every chapter. Three answered two
asking if I had the right address and who I was the rest did not answer.
Each month it is the same and I would believe it will always be the same.

Before I took over the CQ I would hear on a daily basis what was wrong with
the CQ when the first issue went out I heard nothing and recieved only a few
articles but recieved 43 returns from a list of 420. The second without
those names included has ten returns already and I fear what is coming back
from the 1999 issue.

This is not a problem of money here, this is a problem of concern. I
thought of quiting and walking away but I can't. If we are to succeed than
walking away is not an option and cutting back is not even a remote thought.

As much as being left holding the bag (cash wise) would have been bad for me
personally I would rather have seen 300 $2.00 promises than one person
carrying us over the line.

Byron has done all that one man can do but one man never held back the tide
for long. Even heros of old needed help to finish the battle. We have to
ask where is the cavalry? An the sad part is we are the cavalry and we are
not there.

Bruce and Nora are right the dues should be raised to cover the cost of the
periodical but that periodical should be the CQ If we let it die than we
may as well fold up and quit go home and talk about the good old days.
Because that is all there will be a group of people remembering past glory
and legends in our own minds.

I have said in the past I know nothing about the printing trade and no one
in the business and I have heard over and over how many can't deal with
electronic copy so let it be a choice hard copy or electronic as several
magazines do today and adjust the price accordingly.

There may be ways to save money that I am not aware of maybe smaller issues
longer print times some one who will do small runs without a profit for
themselves I don't know.

But I have one last note I will see to it that electronically issue three
and four for the year 2000 will be done and shipped to each guild at my
expence I have never quit a job unfinished and I won't this one. You people
(the board members) decide you can cut and run quit if you will or you can
work to turn this around. If any chapter is not willing to help for any
reason then maybe there is our problem and you must deal with it.

I stand ready to continue with the job as I was given it and with the
mailing of 1999 issue have fullfilled my promise to the president. I will
keep my word and see to it that the two remaning issues will be sent as I
have said by my self if I have to.

Respectfully Yours
C. D. Mami

----- Original Message -----
From: Byron Connell <BP.Connell@worldnet.att.net>
To: <cdmami@home.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 9:00 PM
Subject: Fw: Proposal for the ICG Board


>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce & Nora Mai <casamai@primary.net>
> To: ICG-BOD@egroups.com <ICG-BOD@egroups.com>
> Cc: bp.connell@worldnet.att.net <bp.connell@worldnet.att.net>; Jeff/Mary
> Morris <jsmorris@postnet.com>
> Date: Sunday, October 08, 2000 5:48 PM
> Subject: Proposal for the ICG Board
>
>
> >I can't claim authorship for this idea -- it was mostly Nora's
brainstorm,
> >but we discussed all the stuff surrounding the CQ, the ICG's funding and
> >think we've come up with something that could solve a whole host of
> >problems, and want to see what you folks think.
> >
> >#1. Raise the ICG's dues from $1 per person to $10 per year. Yes,
that's
> a
> >lot, but we in order to make it worthwhile, the Guild must come up with
> some
> >value for that amount of money (in addition to local dues). This leads
> >to...
> >
> >#2. Make the ICG a part of the membership benefits. Each and every
member
> >in good standing would receive the publication.
> >
> >It cost about roughly $3.50 or so to produce and mail out the Annual.
> >Given that it takes $13 or so to produce 4 issues of the CQ, this would
be
> a
> >cheaper membership value than making the CQ part of the ICG membership.
> >Thus, we would leave the CQ as an "opt-in" publication. That leaves
> >plenty of money for the Guild to stay in the black with for its expenses.
> >
> >Certain materials would no longer be published in the CQ, such as the
> Annual
> >Meeting minutes. By publishing the Annual Meeting minutes in the ICG
> >Annual, all members would get to see the Guild business done, rather than
> >just those who opt to subscribe to the CQ. (It also frees up space in
the
> >CQ). Other material, such as CC and Worldcon and other regional con
> reports
> >can be either concurrently published or split up -- that can be decided
> >later. Obituarys would go in the Annual.
> >
> >To save more money, Annuals would be sent to the chapters, and the
chapters
> >would be responsible for getting the Annuals to their members (making
> >whatever time and monetary adjustments with their members that they have
to
> >to accomodate this). Annuals would be shipped out twice a year, to take
> >into account any new members that might join 6 months after the new
> edition.
> >
> >Any extra copies ordered, or that chapter members say they don't need,
the
> >chapter is free to sell for their own profit.
> >
> >
> >===========
> >
> >In addition, my darling wife had another brilliant thought that we want
to
> >run past Ken: If the Annual is a >business< publication of a non-profit
> >organization for its members, which >potentially< could be sold to the
> >public, would releases still be necessary? This could solve a lot of
our
> >contribution problems.
> >
> >======
> >
> >I see this as a win-win situation. The ICG gets more money, all of its
> >members get some value for their increased dues, and the Annual gets
> broader
> >distribution.
> >
> >Bruce
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Dear all,

I have been reading the discussion regarding the Quarterly and the future
of the guild with great interest. Since the topic came up last week, I have
requested information from local board members and senior helpers and,
until I have recieved responses on what has been happening with our fees,
membership reports and the like, I will not comment. You can be sure that I
will when I do have that information.

On the subject mooted of raising membership dues to the ICG (amounts of
US$3 and US$10 have been suggested), I doubt whether it would contribute to
the continuation of the guild unless other action is taken.

It must first be asked, what will the guild provide apart from the CQ and
some mailing lists? Given that no one in Australia has seen a Costumers'
Quarterly in several years, bumping up membership fees is going to be hard
to justify [this is not intended as a blast towards current or former CQ
editors although I am sure that someone, probably someone who has no direct
relationship to the thing, will see it as such].

In short, there are a number of people, such as Byron, John O'H and others,
who put in great work on behalf of the ICG and thier local chapters. It
would be a shame to see people chased away from continuing that spirit.

So, what or what else can the ICG provide? If the answer is nothing, there
is no reason to increase fees. The only reason to increase fees is if
current obligations cannot be covered. Has any survey of current costs been
undertaken?

-C.

> One possible future difficulty is that Egroups has recently been acquired by
> Yahoo, and apparently some changes are planned. I don't think they'll affect
> things TOO awfully much, though.
>
> Mary

I've heard that. I think JohnO told me. That's one reason I haven't been
banging my head against the wall trying to fix my web pages "Click here to join"
thingys. With my luck, by the time I fix it, they will change again.

And YES John, I went to the "Promote" section and tried to copy and paste the
given button, (how do you think I got the link to E-List) but it didn't work. I
don't have Hot Dog or any of the html editors to let me rewrite the code.
Although, I do remember changing some stuff in the code using Nutscape before...
but I've slept since then, don't remember how to do it. I'll look into it AFTER
HALLOWEEN!

Hugs,
Susan

> Given the financial situation of the guild, I think it may be appropriate for
> an even higher rate, say five or ten dollars?Or maybe instead of an optional
> subscription to the Costumer's Quarterly, have it be a part of being a member
> in the guild, with the dues being raised appropriately (15-20$).
> John Syms

Where do I send a check?

Hugs,
Susan

Count me in for the egroups list. It's much easier to use and backtrack when
messages are lost.

JSM

Ditto! In my unghodly long ramble of "Hi There", I mentioned that my
friends & I started the Confederate Chapter years ago. However, at that
time, the "Deep South Costumer's Guild", NOT affliated with the ICG was also
trying to get started so our limited pool of people was split into even
smaller pieces. Now there is nothing. PLUS there is the fact that my name
is still in the back of the Costume Maker's Art as the head of this now
defunct chapter, I still got occational letters wanting to join years after
it went belly up.

Jeff & I would still like to be card carrying, dues paying members of the
ICG in good standing, but with a family, an old house, an ever expanding
small business, and volenteering to run the Masque for the Charlotte 2004
WorldCon bid, I don't have time to run a chapter. I bearly have time to
run an E-list.

Where do I send a check?

Hugs,
Susan

Janice Dallas wrote:

> We were not in an area
> with an active chapter, so couldn't get anything through that pipeline.
> I wish ICG would set up some way for people to send in their money and
> become a member of ICG WITHOUT chapter afiliation, so you could just
> join at a Con. Maybe we'd spread faster and find groupings of single
> memberships that could be encouraged to form a chapter. Other
> organizations do it.
> --
> Janice Dallas
> Boston,MA area, USA
> JaniceDals@MediaOne.net

Replying to Bruce M. comments>>

>
>2. While I disagree with Ken about whether it is was a good use of funds
>to
>get the CQ back on track, given the inherent unstableness of the Guild for
>so long, I can't necessarily fault the logic. The problem was the string
>of
>editors fell victim the the Curse of the Quarterly. In retrospect, maybe
>it
>was a bad decision, but like the man sez, let's just move on.
>================================================

First let me say here that the Quarterly Curse is and never has been never
been anything more that the lack of respond from the guild chapters. If
each guild carried its own weight the Quarterly would be 50 pages of
information before any articles were written.

>================================================
>
>3. On making the CQ part of the membership benefits, I agree in principle.
>HOWEVER, there are a couple of realities, and Jeff's touched on them
>already.
>
>A. Depending on the local chapter's dues, a sudden increase could
>ultimately hurt them because some people will be a bit reluctant to
>suddenly
>have to shell out possibly as much as double the amount of their current
>dues. That could be as much as $30, in some places. It's going to be very
>hard to justify that kind of increase. Expectations are going to rise,
>pertaining to perceived actual benefits. Given the "I'm too busy to
>contribute" excuses Nora and I heard, regarding the Annual, I can't see
>chapter officers doing much more to satisfy those expectations.
>================

If this is the case then maybe we should take a hard look at what each
chapter is doing to remove any chapter that does not feel it can handle the
situation. There are ways to solve all of the cries of doom that we have
heard including mine(Carl). You talk about the proposed or possible upkeep
of the Quarterly schedule, let me state here I KEPT MY WORD. With only
minor help from any chapter and no help from most. I did this in part and
because I had a staff second to none, an advantage that I had over the rest.
But also because I believe and still do that if I could show everyone the
finished product that someone would feel enough guilt to help. There are
some ways to cut the expenses and I will go into them later.
============================

>While a raise in dues might discourage the more casual members, it might
>draw the peope who actually care to support the ICG. Granted, this would
>greatly reduce membership in the short term. Then the issue becomes
>making
>their memberships worthwhile.
>
>B. The CQ is/should be/could be the one central benefit an ICG member has.
>Jeff has raised 2 very valid points. The first is the content. If Carl
>doesn't get people to contribute, he has no content. And frankly, while
>it's an amusing threat to publish reports on Carl's grandkids, the vast
>majority of subscribers would quickly believe this a waste of their money.
>Second of all, I agree that for expense purposes, the mailings necessitates
>having to send the CQ via Bulk Mail. However, with the SLCG's experiences
>in the past, and my own experiences from another club I ran, I ABSOLUTELY
>HATE BULK MAIL!!!!!!!!!!! It's slow and stuff frequently gets lost.
>======================

First let me address the list and mailing. The Quarterly should be in total
control of its subscription list. And I agree BULK MAIL is a damn
inconvenience. Let me propose here that when the CQ are printed and labeled
that they be dropped ship to their guild, checked for correct address, and
mailed at each guild's expense. This would increase each chapters control
over the CQ and satisfy all those opposed to electronic mail.

=======================

>Reiterating what Jeff said, invariably, at least half of our members never
>received their CQs, if and when they were actually put on the rolls (thanks
>to an incredible records fiasco that started back in 1992 and went on for
>years). After 7+ years of CQs never getting to us or members never being
>on the ICG rolls in order to get them, Nora and I could no longer in good
>faith recommend subscribing to the CQ because they got bupkis for their
>money. (My blood pressure is a bit higher just thinking about it again).
>====================

Bruce,
sit down, take your medicine, chill out. I have had to write too many obits
this year. Now look at the comment above. Thank you.

====================

>So, I see a potentially viscious circle here again. We can't have
>subscribers without the CQ, but we can't have a CQ without content. (In
>the
>past, if we didn't have content, the previous editors didn't publish.) If
>the mailings don't get to all the members, then people stop subscribing,
>hence less potential content.
>==============

Unlike a wedding ring this circle can be broken. As I have said before, drop
shipping to the chapters will give each chapter some control over the
mailing of the quarterly. The lack of articles may never be cured. But I
got this far on my own with the help of my fine staff without the threatened
grandchildren and slowly have heard from members throughout the ICG with
articles and ads to help us. We even got articles from you and the sluts
(no minor feat).

>
>==========================================
>
>4. Quarterly membership updates must be given to Carl or whoever does the
>mailings WITHOUT FAIL, and in timely fashion.
>
>===========================================
>See above

=============================

>5. I agree with Ken -- while we and the SLUTS don't currently
>subscribe(but
>will do so when the CQ is up again), I don't like the idea of electronic
>distribution, despite its appeal. The reasons he gives would be exactly
>what would happen. And let's factor in that the person(s) responsible for
>distribution would have to start factoring in wear and tear on their own
>machines for printing, making copies, etc. More expense.

====================
I have carried the expense for my machines for the Archives until this year,
and the Archives machine has helped carried the CQ to date. And if the SLUTs
were to subscribe en mass this would help solve some of the problem. If
other chapters rolls showed even ICG dues paid, some of this would not be
necessary.

===============================

>Again, the content vs. value debate could poison certain chapters with
>members who are rather casual about their involvement.
>
>=========================================
>
>So, what I see here is a few things have to happen -- some are already in
>the works, and some I've suggested already. First, no matter what, the CQ
>has got to get out on a reasonable time schedule, which Carl is pretty
>close
>to doing. Second, we need more chapters to contribute content, even if
>it's
>a one paragraph report on what they've been up to. Third, there has to be
>some sort of oversight of the delivery to confirm that CQs have been
>received. We didn't receive the chapter CQ unitl I actually inquired about
>it.

===========

Two items at this point. First, no chapter is listed on the ICG rolls to
receive a CQ. Second, until I got confirmation from the president no
chapter would receive a CQ unless it contributed. Each chapter that
CONTRIBUTED did receive a copy. No one contributed.

======================
Either Carl or an assistant to Carl should contact each of the chapters

>via snail mail or e-mail (ideally) and confirm whether subscribers have
>received their copies. If we let this accursed Bulk Mail ("Slowly I
>turned....step by.... " oops, sorry) cycle happen again, we'll be right
>back
>where we started.

==============
Same old issue, see above. The horse is dead, please stop beating him.
Thank you.
======================
Fourth, as intimated by Byron, we must promote the Guild

>and especially the CQ.
>
>If, at first, we have to have a stable of writers to try to do something,
>then let me be the first to volunteer to be a regular contributer. In
>addition to doing stuff specifically for the CQ, I will be funneling
>articles I've had already published in the Scarlet Letter. Surely those of
>you who have a newsletter could do the same? In this way, chapters could
>make their contributions to the ICG publication? Even if newsletters are
>being traded, I'm betting most members don't get to see the newsletters
>from
>other chapters, so the content would be new to the CQ readers.
>
>Once the CQ has a solid base of articles, we can confidently promote it at
>cons and online.
>
>The ICG list will never completely suffice as a replacement for the CQ, if
>for no other reason than that no one wants to always sit at their
>computers.
>Some people in the boonies or other countries or of relative low economic
>status might not have a computer. In any case, these people would prefer
>to
>have something they can hold in their hands and share with others.
>
>Bruce
>===================

Final comment: it might be a good idea to made the chapter issue of the CQ
dependent on the receipt of the chapter newsletter. So that we here at CQ
headquarters (CQHQ) could see who was singing in the chorus or just moving
their lips. I have heard time and time again what was wrong with the CQ.
Until the first issue was produced, at which point myself, my family and my
staff (which are all the same), suddenly thought our computers had died
because of the lack of mail. This may be a coincidence. You decide. As I
have said before and will say again, I will continue to produce the CQ on
schedule (or very close to it). Whether the CQ lives or dies is your choice
not mine.

Words by Carl, typed by Dora, corrected by Elaine.

>Thank you
>
>
>
>
>

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Last time on 90210, John O'Halloran said,

>The monthly (mostly) messages gave directions for switching from single
>to digest or vice versa.

and it never, ever worked for me. Sorry! Just my personal experience here!

> First let me say here that the Quarterly Curse is and never
> has been never
> been anything more that the lack of respond from the guild
> chapters. If
> each guild carried its own weight the Quarterly would be 50 pages of
> information before any articles were written.

As a point of information, the Quarterly Curse is Real Life (tm) interfering
with the timely publication of the Quarterly. Real Life (tm) is usually
life-threatening illness, IIRC, but may also be such things as other
personal disaster, overwork, stress, etc.

> If this is the case then maybe we should take a hard look at
> what each
> chapter is doing to remove any chapter that does not feel it
> can handle the
> situation. There are ways to solve all of the cries of doom
> that we have
> heard including mine(Carl). You talk about the proposed or
> possible upkeep
> of the Quarterly schedule, let me state here I KEPT MY WORD.

Let me second that. Carl has, to the best of my knowledge, delivered every
bit of material he was expected to. He delivered it closer to "on time"
(based on his original stated production schedule, and given the odd
"mega-issue" :-) than any previous Quarterly editor I can think of since Jim
Kovalcin. We can all stop complaining. Carl is eminently capable of keeping
the Quarterly going, given cooperation from the ICG, individual Guild
chapters, and his readers.

So, as Carl said elsewhere, lets stop beating that particular deceased
equine, shall we?

> First let me address the list and mailing. The Quarterly
> should be in total
> control of its subscription list.

Umm, as long as the Quarterly is published by the ICG, the ICG will control
the membership list. Sorry, but it's the reality of the situation.

> And I agree BULK MAIL is a damn
> inconvenience. Let me propose here that when the CQ are
> printed and labeled
> that they be dropped ship to their guild, checked for correct
> address, and
> mailed at each guild's expense. This would increase each
> chapters control
> over the CQ and satisfy all those opposed to electronic mail.

While I don't like bulk mail any more than the next fellow, I don't think
this will be a popular idea; chapters will have to foot the bill for mailing
the Quarterly out of their own pockets. I'm not even sure that *I* like that
idea.

As for my opposition to electronic dissemination of information, I think
I've adequately stated my position, and the reasons for it, elsewhere.

Ken Warren
Vice President, ICG

Janice,

Once again, she makes sense! The Pups, as other chapters, have members from
everywhere. They are kept in touch thru our various newsletters, but I
don't know how well we (specifically, the Pups. I won't speak for other
chapters) are meeting their needs. We (the Pups) can ask our distant
members to give their comments/suggestions on this. I'll even start with
you!

It's good to have another thing to discuss!

Janice, how well do the Pups meet your needs? How can we do better? What
could you bring to that table?

Elaine

>From: Janice Dallas <JaniceDals@mediaone.net>
>Reply-To: ICG-D@egroups.com
>To: ICG-D@egroups.com
>Subject: Re: [ICG-D] Digest Number 5
>Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 21:46:01 -0400
>
>One of our major problems from the first time when someone told us
>about Costume Con and the ICG, was getting any way of finding out what
>was happening. We were lucky to find a form and get to CC11, but didn't
>understand how to keep information coming to us. We were not in an area
>with an active chapter, so couldn't get anything through that pipeline.
>I wish ICG would set up some way for people to send in their money and
>become a member of ICG WITHOUT chapter afiliation, so you could just
>join at a Con. Maybe we'd spread faster and find groupings of single
>memberships that could be encouraged to form a chapter. Other
>organizations do it.
>--
>Janice Dallas
>Boston,MA area, USA
>JaniceDals@MediaOne.net
>"Just so, the girl has beauty, virtue, wit..."

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BTW, can we get the old records from you? We'll even pick them up.

Elaine

>From: Atalanta <atalanta@earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: ICG-D@egroups.com
>To: ICG-D@egroups.com
>Subject: [ICG-D] C Q&APA
>Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 22:46:42 -0400
>
>Last I heard, George was killing the APA due to lack of interest. I
>tried to get the people who submit to the APA to contribute to CQ and
>never heard either way.
>
>Pat
>--
>How many angels can you fit on the head of a pin?
>"I think the answer honestly depends on whether you're a journeyman
>or a master class, and what con you're doing it for." - M. Mountain
>
>
>Pat Ritter
>
>Webmistress -- Lunatic Phrynge
>http:/LunaticPhrynge.org

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Sharon Trembley is the ICG Treasurer. Her address is 398 Prospect St., S.
Amboy, NJ 08879.

>From: Jeff & Susan Stringer <Stringer@cdc.net>
>Reply-To: ICG-D@egroups.com
>To: ICG-D@egroups.com
>Subject: Re: [ICG-D] Byron's address and Elaine's response
>Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 06:55:20 -0400
>
> > Given the financial situation of the guild, I think it may be
>appropriate for
> > an even higher rate, say five or ten dollars?Or maybe instead of an
>optional
> > subscription to the Costumer's Quarterly, have it be a part of being a
>member
> > in the guild, with the dues being raised appropriately (15-20$).
> > John Syms
>
>Where do I send a check?
>
>Hugs,
>Susan
>

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Sorry, I forgot that you said you were currently "unattached." I don't know
if we have a policy at all for unaffiliated members. We should consider
that. However, if there is a problem being unattached, you can choose to
join any chapter that warms your hearts. As I mentioned before, the Pups
have lots of "foreign" members, as do the SLUTS and others. One of our
member couples in Florida was even thinking of starting a new litter of Pups
down there. If you want to connect with them, contact me off-list.

Elaine

>From: Jeff & Susan Stringer <Stringer@cdc.net>
>Reply-To: ICG-D@egroups.com
>To: ICG-D@egroups.com
>Subject: Re: [ICG-D] Digest Number 5
>Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 07:09:14 -0400
>
>Ditto! In my unghodly long ramble of "Hi There", I mentioned that my
>friends & I started the Confederate Chapter years ago. However, at that
>time, the "Deep South Costumer's Guild", NOT affliated with the ICG was
>also
>trying to get started so our limited pool of people was split into even
>smaller pieces. Now there is nothing. PLUS there is the fact that my name
>is still in the back of the Costume Maker's Art as the head of this now
>defunct chapter, I still got occational letters wanting to join years after
>it went belly up.
>
>Jeff & I would still like to be card carrying, dues paying members of the
>ICG in good standing, but with a family, an old house, an ever expanding
>small business, and volenteering to run the Masque for the Charlotte 2004
>WorldCon bid, I don't have time to run a chapter. I bearly have time to
>run an E-list.
>
>Where do I send a check?
>
>Hugs,
>Susan
>
>Janice Dallas wrote:
>
> > We were not in an area
> > with an active chapter, so couldn't get anything through that pipeline.
> > I wish ICG would set up some way for people to send in their money and
> > become a member of ICG WITHOUT chapter afiliation, so you could just
> > join at a Con. Maybe we'd spread faster and find groupings of single
> > memberships that could be encouraged to form a chapter. Other
> > organizations do it.
> > --
> > Janice Dallas
> > Boston,MA area, USA
> > JaniceDals@MediaOne.net
>

_________________________________________________________________________
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Bulk mail mail be inconvenient, but it IS cheaper. That is, when the
addresses are correct. Remember, bad addresses are NOT the fault of bulk
mail, Also, we are charged regular postage for returned CQs, then pay a 3rd
time to re-mail them IF we get address corrections.

Elaine

>From: "Ken Warren" <kenw@voicenet.com>
>Reply-To: ICG-D@egroups.com
>To: <ICG-D@egroups.com>
>Subject: RE: [ICG-D] ICG & CQ
>Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 11:23:00 -0400
>
> > First let me say here that the Quarterly Curse is and never
> > has been never
> > been anything more that the lack of respond from the guild
> > chapters. If
> > each guild carried its own weight the Quarterly would be 50 pages of
> > information before any articles were written.
>
>As a point of information, the Quarterly Curse is Real Life (tm)
>interfering
>with the timely publication of the Quarterly. Real Life (tm) is usually
>life-threatening illness, IIRC, but may also be such things as other
>personal disaster, overwork, stress, etc.
>
> > If this is the case then maybe we should take a hard look at
> > what each
> > chapter is doing to remove any chapter that does not feel it
> > can handle the
> > situation. There are ways to solve all of the cries of doom
> > that we have
> > heard including mine(Carl). You talk about the proposed or
> > possible upkeep
> > of the Quarterly schedule, let me state here I KEPT MY WORD.
>
>Let me second that. Carl has, to the best of my knowledge, delivered every
>bit of material he was expected to. He delivered it closer to "on time"
>(based on his original stated production schedule, and given the odd
>"mega-issue" :-) than any previous Quarterly editor I can think of since
>Jim
>Kovalcin. We can all stop complaining. Carl is eminently capable of keeping
>the Quarterly going, given cooperation from the ICG, individual Guild
>chapters, and his readers.
>
>So, as Carl said elsewhere, lets stop beating that particular deceased
>equine, shall we?
>
> > First let me address the list and mailing. The Quarterly
> > should be in total
> > control of its subscription list.
>
>Umm, as long as the Quarterly is published by the ICG, the ICG will control
>the membership list. Sorry, but it's the reality of the situation.
>
> > And I agree BULK MAIL is a damn
> > inconvenience. Let me propose here that when the CQ are
> > printed and labeled
> > that they be dropped ship to their guild, checked for correct
> > address, and
> > mailed at each guild's expense. This would increase each
> > chapters control
> > over the CQ and satisfy all those opposed to electronic mail.
>
>While I don't like bulk mail any more than the next fellow, I don't think
>this will be a popular idea; chapters will have to foot the bill for
>mailing
>the Quarterly out of their own pockets. I'm not even sure that *I* like
>that
>idea.
>
>As for my opposition to electronic dissemination of information, I think
>I've adequately stated my position, and the reasons for it, elsewhere.
>
>Ken Warren
>Vice President, ICG
>

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In a message dated 10/09/2000 11:30:07 AM Central Daylight Time,
ecmami@hotmail.com writes:

<< Bulk mail mail be inconvenient, but it IS cheaper. That is, when the
addresses are correct. Remember, bad addresses are NOT the fault of bulk
mail, Also, we are charged regular postage for returned CQs, then pay a 3rd
time to re-mail them IF we get address corrections. >>

The problem with bulk mail is that it's undependable. Many SLUTS were also
officers of a local Dr. Who fanclub that had a membership of over 600 and
sent out mailings bulk; the SLUTS also did bulk mail for a while.

We discovered that it was not an unusual event for a significant portion of
items bulk mailed to just 'disappear' in transit. (Entire area codes worth,
in many cases) Another significant portion usually took over four weeks to
be delivered, sometimes as long as eight weeks. Another portion frequently
arrived very torn up. We added up the costs to us - in time, (bulk mail has
to be specially sorted and organized by area code before going to the post
office) in personal aggravation, in costs of newsletters lost and never seen
again (which had to be re-printed and re-mailed), in information not getting
out to our members in a timely manner - and decided that bulk mail wasn't
worth the savings, which turned out to be largely illusionary once everything
was factored in. We put it to our membership, and they agreed overwhelmingly
that first class was worth any increase in membership fees it might
necessitate.

Bruce will probably remember better than I, but after an organization
delivers their bulk mail to the PO, the PO most usually throws it in a corner
and gives it the lowest priority of anything else they've got to do. It may
sit for literally weeks. They may lose it. They are under absolutely no
obligation to deliver it for a looong time. :-(

MVM

In a message dated 10/09/2000 11:23:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
kenw@voicenet.com writes:

> While I don't like bulk mail any more than the next fellow, I don't think
> this will be a popular idea; chapters will have to foot the bill for

mailing

> the Quarterly out of their own pockets. I'm not even sure that *I* like

that

> idea.
>

Why does it have to be Mail, Hand delivery is just as valid a method.
Just distribute it at the next guild meeting.(It would have the added benifit
of encouraging attendance at local chapter meetings)
John Syms

Why Three Cents? Been There, Done That, Bought the T-Shirt and
Currently Wearing It Out. (May be I should make that four cents?)

My history with the Mythopoeic Society. If you know greek
pronounce it, if not don't bother. The important thing is that it
is a Non-Profit Fanish Group that started off as chapters (called
branches same difference) and is now an International Group that
also has optional branches. I joined in 1968 when it was strictly
branches (you joined a branch to be in the organization sound
familiar?). I have been the managing editor of the MONTHLY
Newsletter (we also have a quarterly for the less timely, more
scholarly stuff). And I am now the Treasurer of the whole
shooting match.

The most important thing to this group is that I watched the
transformation from Branches are Ghods to Branches? you mean you
want to meet other people? Admittedly we are a literary group, we
can talk about things over the internet and through magazines and
APAs and other stuff. Hands on, F2F is not really necessary. But
I know the reality of it and the costs.

First off, why drop the chapters for source of revenue/members?
For the same reason you guys are having now. The Chapters forget
or won't send the stuff they should to Central Office. What was
our solution? Take the chapters out of the loop. Branches can and
do still exist in the Mythopoeic Society. In fact with our two
most recent secretaries for the position, they have gotten tons
of support and are florishing. The neat thing is that, Central
Office gives them support and otherwise, Let's Them Be. We don't
need to worry about them sending financial reports to us. We
contact every member directly and they contact us. Much easier.
Each branch figures out its own dues to support local activities
and handles all their own money. National handles membership in
the organization, subscriptions for three publications (monthly
newsletter, quarterly scholarly, and irregular writing zine), the
e-lists, the website, and sanctions two APAs, plus all those
chapters.

What does it cost us? Currently $5 for membership (soon going up
to $10). For that you get a nifty membership card, voting rights,
the Annual Report (a fat issue of our Monthly Magazine), a
discount in our Annual Convention, and a $5 discount on
publications. The Publications Non-Member prices are $17 for the
Monthly (first class); $20 for the Quarterly (2nd Class), and $12
for two issues of the Writers magazine. Higher to cover postage
for outside the US. Non-member, why Non-member? Well, only humans
can be members, which excludes Libraries and the like, and
Libraries do subscribe, so we have Non-Members getting our
magazines. YMMV.

Me? I am a member (have to be, see note about being the
Treasurer). I subscibe to the Monthly for news, and the writers
publication for the fun of it. The Quarterly tended to be boring,
but we just got a new editor this year and its improved. I'm
thinking of sending in my money. But I send all information to
one Central Office. My local branch (which I formed by the way)
is not involved at all. Our local branch currently collects no
dues because our current secretary for our local branch e-mails
meeting notices and foots the bill for the few members who want a
hard copy because they don't get e-mail. Again YMMV depending on
what your local needs.

It isn't perfect. But for people like me who didn't belong to the
ICG until a chapter formed in my area (and then promptly went
belly up) and now the bigger chapter to the north of me also
having problems, having independent membership in the ICG may be
the ONLY way I can give you my support. Because frankly, I don't
want to get a newsletter from another chapter in another area,
hearing about all the fun they are having and I can't get there.
Thank you very much. It's bad enough I can't make it to the
branch meetings of the Mythopoeic Society because of time
contraints and its a local branch. By the way, I never joined the
GBACG for the same reason (most of their meetings are 50 miles
away from me, hardly convenient).

Oh, and about the Quarterly not being sent well, um er,
quarterly. For the last five years our last editor was in charge
we were lucky to see one issue a year. In his last year, we saw
none. Been there, done that. But the nice thing was, we could
continue. We still had the monthly newsletter (which under one
recent editor only came out four times in one year). So we just
continued peoples memberships and subscriptions until the number
of issues they were to get were sent out and most people
Re-Upped! And our Branches continued on their merry ways, since
they didn't really need us. And we still exist, we still have
money (not a lot, we are 501(c)3). But we just kinda move along,
going with the flow. Hey, life is like that.

By the way, we could always use more members. If you like reading
Tolkien, Lewis, Williams and other fantasy authors, go to
http://www.mythsoc.org <g>. Some of us even like costuming!

Anyways, that's my three cents worth of experience. Take it
anyway you want.

Yours in service to fandom.

Lisa Deutsch Harrigan
Treasurer, The Mythopoeic Society

Hi--I personally would be interested in finding out more about costume
and masquerade at Charlotte in 2004 (as a costumer and a supporter of
that bid).

Please contact me at lisa58@juno.com.

Yours in costuming, Lisa A.
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

Although I don't have any kind of axe to grind, really, I would like to
know, what became of the two articles I wrote and physically sent to be
published in the Quarterly, as much as a year ago?

One was about how to successfully give a costume-related panel (or to
moderate a panel) and I had been begged to contribute it, and it NEVER
showed up anywhere. I may have it on disk somewhere.

So, besides mine, there may have been other worthwhile writeen
contributions to past Quarterly "ghosts" that have never come to light
and are lost in the ozone.

Yours in costuming, Lisa A.
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

I have to admit, this seems far more reasonable to me, as yet another
lonely isolate. My branch is 300 miles away and I only see them once a
year or so. Anytime you add another stop to the loop it takes longer and
things have more of a chance to get lost (money in, publications out). At
this time it might be valuable to discuss what the intended goals of the
ICG were and are.

Linda Peterson

On Mon, 9 Oct 2000, Lisa Deutsch Harrigan wrote:
> First off, why drop the chapters for source of revenue/members?
> For the same reason you guys are having now. The Chapters forget
> or won't send the stuff they should to Central Office. What was
> our solution? Take the chapters out of the loop. Branches can and
> do still exist in the Mythopoeic Society. In fact with our two
> most recent secretaries for the position, they have gotten tons
> of support and are florishing. The neat thing is that, Central
> Office gives them support and otherwise, Let's Them Be. We don't
> need to worry about them sending financial reports to us. We
> contact every member directly and they contact us. Much easier.
> Each branch figures out its own dues to support local activities
> and handles all their own money. National handles membership in
> the organization, subscriptions for three publications (monthly
> newsletter, quarterly scholarly, and irregular writing zine), the
> e-lists, the website, and sanctions two APAs, plus all those
> chapters.
>
mirhaxa@morktorn.com

In a message dated 10/9/00 6:52:16 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
dfbuck@hotmail.com writes:

> Let me propose here that when the CQ are printed and labeled
> that they be dropped ship to their guild, checked for correct address, and
> mailed at each guild's expense. This would increase each chapters control
> over the CQ and satisfy all those opposed to electronic mail.

As non-officer mailbox guy for the Southwest Costumers Guild, I think this is
a good idea.

Drop shipping will reduce complexity for the CQ staff. Most of the copies can
be handed out at the next meeting, with no postage cost. The locals are also
much more likely to know the current wherabouts of persons who have moved
since their last contact with ICG. (we have one member who has changed
addresses so often, she uses "manymoves" as part of her e-mail address).

Randall
SWCG

Hey, Randall,

Did you do an Elvis/Alien(???) kind of costume at a con recently? I thought the name they announced was yours, but I wasn't really paying attention. It did seem to be your style though.

Bruno
Millennium CG

>Randall
>SWCG

75 members on ICG-D

Just found a new feature I really like as a moderator, the "bounce"
listing. Best just silently stopped sending eMail and I had to remember
to pull a membership list to look at and see who was bouncing. eGroups
gives me a list, when they started and whether or not it has tested to
see if they have come back online or not.

Currently we have 3 bouncing folks:
ann@st40.dvacm.gov deactivated on 10/6/2000
billerno@mail.macol.net deactivated on 10/8/2000
dragon7777@juno.com deactivated on 10/6/2000

Anybody know who these folks are and if they alternate addresses I can
query?

JohnO

And this another...

The 75th message in the archive on eGroups.

Lame I know.

It's late.
It's been a long day.
And worst of all...

I'm still at work.

JohnO

--- In ICG-D@egroups.com, "John O'Halloran" <eoin@t...> wrote:
> 75 members on ICG-D
>
> Just found a new feature I really like as a moderator, the "bounce"
> listing. Best just silently stopped sending eMail and I had to
remember
> to pull a membership list to look at and see who was bouncing.
eGroups
> gives me a list, when they started and whether or not it has tested
to
> see if they have come back online or not.
>
> Currently we have 3 bouncing folks:
> ann@s... deactivated on 10/6/2000
> billerno@m... deactivated on 10/8/2000
> dragon7777@j... deactivated on 10/6/2000
>
> Anybody know who these folks are and if they alternate addresses I
can
> query?
>
> JohnO

>Currently we have 3 bouncing folks:
> ann@st40.dvacm.gov deactivated on 10/6/2000

Don't know about this one.

> billerno@mail.macol.net deactivated on 10/8/2000

This one looks like Bill Ernoehazy. He's been posting, maybe from a different address.

> dragon7777@juno.com deactivated on 10/6/2000

It looks familiar, maybe Nova?

>
>Anybody know who these folks are and if they alternate addresses I can
>query?
>

Bruno
Millennium CG

At 06:39 PM 10/8/00 -0600, you wrote:

>Regarding the issue of a shortage of submissions for the CQ, how is the

APA doing (Masquerade & Costume???)? It would seem that the APA and the CQ
are intended to serve roughly the same purpose, but are fighting each other
to do it. Couldn't the two join forces or at least share information.

>
>This is merely a point of inquiry and not intended to directly flame anyone.
>
>Bruno
>Millennium CG

The Apa (both the previous CostumApa or the current Costume & Masquerade
are quite different than the CQ. Apas are comment magazines. People send
in a train of thought commentary, talk about what's bothering them or
delighting them and answer comments from other people. C&M is including
feature articles. I can tell you I have to fight for them. Also, apas, by
their nature, have limited memberships. Each person must supply sufficient
copies for every member of the apa. 50 is about the upper limit any apa
can handle.

Why don't we just forward the articles I get to CQ? Because the articles we
get are intended by the author for C&M only. We don't pay for articles or
for rights of first reprint. If the author likes, thy can also send their
article to CQ. If they tell me I can, I'll forward it myself. But we need
permission. The actual zines would be unintelligible to the general
audience unless we printed all of them. Just won't work.

Pierre

> billerno@mail.macol.net deactivated on 10/8/2000

This one looks like Bill Ernoehazy. He's been posting, maybe from a
different address.

Absolutely. I submitted a kill request on the older macol.net address, but
I guess it didn't work so good.

By all means kill it, and stick with my current address.

cheerily, from WY right now,
Dr. Bill

In a message dated 10/9/00 4:49:59 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
plastic@mail.codenet.net writes:

> Hey, Randall,
>
> Did you do an Elvis/Alien(???) kind of costume at a con recently? I

thought

> the name they announced was yours, but I wasn't really paying attention.

It

> did seem to be your style though.
>
> Bruno
> Millennium CG

No, not one of mine.

I haven't been out of Arizona for a con this year. The last thing I did was
a "Zapp Brannigan" re-creation at Leprecon this spring.

I did have an idea for an Elvish Presley once, but never acted on it.

My current project is for halloween---the redneck red devil "Beelzebubba."
This will recycle some of the props and makeup from Darth Y'all.

Randall

Hokay. I got lots to say to Mr. Carl/Dora Buck. :D




Response to Carl #1

"First let me say here that the Quarterly Curse is and never has been never
been anything more that the lack of respond from the guild chapters. If
each guild carried its own weight the Quarterly would be 50 pages of
information before any articles were written."

I respectfully disagree to some extent. Ken pretty much covered it -- Real
Life happened to some of the editors. We had one who DIED and one who had
serious health issues. As I recall, the records were totally hosed up,
too, -- and there may've been a lack of money (my history is fuzzy on
that -- this might been yet ANOTHER editor) where an editor was waiting
for funds for mailing and had the printed CQs riding around in her car for
months. But
as I thought I made clear, I aggree that lack of submissions is still at the
core of the publication's problems. I'm rather surprised that you didn't
realize that.

==========

Response to Carl #2

> ........ maybe we should take a hard look at what each
> chapter is doing to remove any chapter that does not feel it can handle

the

> situation.

I agree, but others do not.

> But also because I believe and still do that if I could show everyone

the

> finished product that someone would feel enough guilt to help.

Unfortunately, human nature being what it is, about 90% of any group are
quite willing to let the other 10% do all the work. I saw this in our
Doctor Who club, and we see it here. Makes no difference what organization
you're talking bout, IMO.

===========
Response to Carl #3

> First let me address the list and mailing. The Quarterly should be in

total

> control of its subscription list.

Sounds like Ken pretty much had the word on that one.

>Let me propose here that when the CQ are printed and
>labeled that they be dropped ship to their guild, checked for correct

address, and

> mailed at each guild's expense. This would increase each chapters control
> over the CQ and satisfy all those opposed to electronic mail.

An interesting idea, since we did the same thing with the Annual.


=======================
Response to Carl #4

> >Reiterating what Jeff said, invariably, at least half of our members

never

> >received their CQs, if and when they were actually put on the rolls

(thanks

> >to an incredible records fiasco that started back in 1992 and went on for
> >years). After 7+ years of CQs never getting to us or members never

being

> >on the ICG rolls in order to get them, Nora and I could no longer in good
> >faith recommend subscribing to the CQ because they got bupkis for their
> >money. (My blood pressure is a bit higher just thinking about it again).

> Bruce,
> sit down, take your medicine, chill out. I have had to write too many

obits

> this year. Now look at the comment above. Thank you.

Sorry. This is a very LAAARGE horse that, until you took over, was still
twitching

. It's easy to say when you entire Guild's chapter records are hosed up,
and Nora and I are standing up there saying to prospective members, "Hey
join the ICG! There's this great publication called the Costumers Quarterly
that's part of your membership". Like I said, I could not, in good
conscience, recommend subscribing when there was no evidence of one coming
out (at that time)

>We even got articles from you and the sluts
> (no minor feat).

And Lisa A said:

>Although I don't have any kind of axe to grind, really, I would like to
>know, what became of the two articles I wrote and physically sent to be
>published in the Quarterly, as much as a year ago?

That horse is still a twitchin'. Nora and I sent in articles to various
editors over the years, and they were, unfortunately at the time, somewhat
time sensitive. By the time the CQs in question came out, it was a complete
joke. I'm trusting that you will not have this problem.

And getting submissions ain't no mean feat -- I'm always willing to help
out. You will be getting more from me, but I would appreciate
acknowledgement of receipt of said articles in the future (a private issue
just between you and me).

====================

Response to Carl #5

> Two items at this point. First, no chapter is listed on the ICG rolls to
> receive a CQ. Second, until I got confirmation from the president no
> chapter would receive a CQ unless it contributed. Each chapter that
> CONTRIBUTED did receive a copy. No one contributed.

Okay, now I take issue with that. First of all, I believe, unless I'm
mistaken, the CQs WERE mailed to the chapters in the past. And, I called
Byron to confirm that policy, before I even inquired about that. Frankly, I
don't have an arguement with that, per se. I just thought that something
had changed all of a sudden.

By the way, we know about the difficulty you had in getting the chapter info
for the last CQ. Since you had to seek that info out yourself, those
listings looked much like the Annual's.

===========

Response to Carl #6

>
> Final comment: it might be a good idea to made the chapter issue of the CQ
> dependent on the receipt of the chapter newsletter. So that we here at CQ
> headquarters (CQHQ) could see who was singing in the chorus or just moving
> their lips>

Hmm. An interesting notion, however, I know for a fact that there is one or
more chapters that are such loose affiliations that they do not have a
newsletter, or publish one very infrequently. But there might be other
ideas out there....

Bruce

I would have rather this had been discussed on the Board list first, because
this will probably turn into what Ken feared, but.......

First of all, maybe because of Carl's e-mail, I have been
misinterpreted, and maybe the entire proposal needs to be re-posted without
someone quoting it.

Nonetheless, let's go to the races....

Point #1. At no point did I say let's chuck the CQ. Let me make that plain
and clear. If anyone reads the proposal, all I said was that we should
seperate some materials from the CQ like the >Annual< report. That could go
in the >Annual<. The CQ should be the ICG's periodical, but it isn't, as
it stands, if it's an opt-in subscription (this does not mean that I endorse
the notion of making it part of ICG membership or not).

HOWEVER, expense-wise, as Carl sees it, the CQ is too expensive as a
newsletter. SHOULD it be more of a newsletter? Because most of the CQ
consists
of features. If the purpose is supposed to be to disseminate info to the
ICG members, then perhaps it needs to be re-focused some.

=============

Point #2. I want to go on record as disagreeing with my distiguished
newsetter editor about the lack of necessity of the CQ. But, as both Carl
and Jeff have said, the lack of contributors by ICG members is appalling. I
do not like the idea of electronic distribution, either, as I believe I
said.

=======================

Point #3. Chris B. said:

"It must first be asked, what will the guild provide apart from the CQ and
some mailing lists? Given that no one in Australia has seen a Costumers'
Quarterly in several years, bumping up membership fees is going to be hard
to justify [this is not intended as a blast towards current or former CQ
editors although I am sure that someone, probably someone who has no direct
relationship to the thing, will see it as such]."

He made my point about members questioning the value of a membership when
the CQ is an optional publication. Hence, our proposal to make the Annual a
membership benefit.

===================

Ken gets his own section of responses.

>:D

Response to Ken #1:

"As you may recall, I argued against the Annual when it was first proposed.
I thought then that it would cause a division of available resources (people
writing articles and contributing photographs and the like) with the
Quarterly. I still think that could occur, though it's not happening at the
moment, due to the lack of member support for *either* publication."

See Point number one -- we seperate what goes to each publication. Some of
this work can be done by me, rather than depending on other chapters, as we
did previously for the Proto-Annual.

Carl apparently want to get away from photos, to some extent. That takes
care of most of that problem. And we don't want "how-tos" in the Annual. I
don't see this as an issue, content-wise, at least partially.

=============

Response to Ken #2:

"Umm, our main "real" expense is currently the production and mailing costs
of the Quarterly. There are others, but they're relatively minor. If we're
only providing the Annual, why raise the dues to $10? Why not to $5? But I
think we should get the Quarterly back on it's feet first, *then* think
about the Annual."

While that's not the impression I've gotten from Byron, be that as it may,
that's find. However, LIKE I SAID, I was not proposing only the Annual.
You wanna toss in the CQ, fine, but I've gotten the impression that not
everyone WANTS the CQ. I agree, from a financial standpoint, the CQ comes
first, presently. That's why we stopped production of the Annual until this
is sorted out. But raising the dues enough to cover both publications would
definitely give more value to an ICG membership. That's all I'm saying.



================

It looks like we're going to carry this over into another thread, so I'll
end here.

Bruce

Hey guys and ghouls,

Has anyone gotten a copy of Martha Stewart Living for this month (October)? I
know, I can't stand Martha either, but one of my customers came in with a copy.
It has pages & pages of great Halloween make ups with step by step instructions
including how to do a GOOD bald cap and latex work, etc. I didn't get to read
the full articles (I meant to pick up my own copy at the newsstand) but the cover
is actually Martha as a Vampire/Spider Queen type makeup that is totally
unrecognizable as her. It may actually be worth looking into!

Hugs,
Susan

The only thing about Martha Stewart magazines, show, "concept", is that
she really doesn't do any of it herself; doubtless she had an "expert" do
the actual work. I found my first few books on makeup at my county
library, and I still have the photocopies pages for use.

Lisa A.
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

John --

Exactly what does the copyright notice say? No matter how much
more convenient egroups may be, the ICG cannot accept a
service that arrogates to itself the copyright on formal ICG
business, and ICG-BOD <is> formal ICG business. I also do
formal ICG business on ICG-D, such as distributing the ICG
President's Message. I won't permit egroups to copyright that
material; I own it on behalf of the corporation. If egroups seeks to
do so, we'll have to find a different service.

Byron

>>> eoin@tyedye.org 10/08/00 11:09PM >>>

Answering a couple at once.

"J.A. Kelley" wrote:

> Under the Best system, all I got were digests, and I could find no way
> of getting single messages. I like the egroups list management
> system--and how easy it is for individual list members to control
> their own destiny (as it were)-- so I would encourage you to
> keep the list at egroups.

The monthly (mostly) messages gave directions for switching from single
to digest or vice versa.

Lisa Deutsch Harrigan wrote:

> First off, I'm on lots of eGroups Lists. Maintenance for me
> becomes easy.

I'm on bunches as well. I've actually been looking at eGroups
as potential home for the lists for a few months, but...

> That being said, I have noticed that we don't have any ads on
> these e-mails. That is done by paying eGroups a yearly fee, which
> most groups don't bother to do. It is small, $30 I believe, John
> must have been nice and paid it for us. Thank you John.

Sorry I can't take the credit. All new lists get a undefined grace
period before the ads start showing up. The cost of removing ads
is a little under $60 ($4.95/mth)

Please note when the ads do show up, they will be at the top of the
message and if you elect html format mail they are banner ads.

Hey folks, what is the default? html or text?

> Frankly, I can go either way. Whichever is easier for John to
> maintain. He has to do all the hard work after all.

Options we have options:

1) Move back to best and the ICG-L@lists.best.com address.

2) Stay with eGroups

3) Stay with eGroups, but move to iServer, when the ISP change happens.

So far the count is:
5 for eGroups
with 1 reservations
2 either way

Addressing the reservations, which I share, I spent time looking at the
Terms of Services and Copyright notice on eGroup and Yahoo last night.
I was pleasantly surprised to find wording that limited what they could
do with the content and such. After you get past the any and all use in
perpetuity stuff, it actually says so that it can reproduce the contents
"to other members of that group" Section 11 of the eGroups' ToS and 8B
of the Yahoo Clubs' TOS.

Well that's enough for today.
JohnO

Please make checks for contributions to the ICG payable to Internationasl Costumers' Guild, Inc. Send them to:

Sharon Trembley, Trreasurer
International Costumers' Guild, Inc
398 Prospect Street
South Amboy, NJ 08879-1942 USA

If you want a receipt for tax purposes, please let Sharon know.

Byron

Bruce,

About that horse.....

Just thought we'd let you know that we have been in contact with various
folks and will be eventually getting some of the old submissions. I don't
know if anyone is in possession of the whole lot, but, as you said, some of
it was time-sensitive, and would be decidedly old by now.

We are trying to encourage the submission of new stuff, at any rate. I,
personally, would like to see notice of future events in your areas. Stuff
that is over 3 months in the future. That way, when it gets published it
will still be timely. Most people do plan at least that far ahead, I think.

Elaine

>From: "Bruce & Nora Mai" <casamai@primary.net>
>Reply-To: ICG-D@egroups.com
>To: <ICG-D@egroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [ICG-D] ICG & CQ
>Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 23:11:15 -0500
>
>Hokay. I got lots to say to Mr. Carl/Dora Buck. :D
>
>
>
>
>Response to Carl #1
>
>"First let me say here that the Quarterly Curse is and never has been never
>been anything more that the lack of respond from the guild chapters. If
>each guild carried its own weight the Quarterly would be 50 pages of
>information before any articles were written."
>
>I respectfully disagree to some extent. Ken pretty much covered it -- Real
>Life happened to some of the editors. We had one who DIED and one who had
>serious health issues. As I recall, the records were totally hosed up,
>too, -- and there may've been a lack of money (my history is fuzzy on
>that -- this might been yet ANOTHER editor) where an editor was waiting
>for funds for mailing and had the printed CQs riding around in her car for
>months. But
>as I thought I made clear, I aggree that lack of submissions is still at
>the
>core of the publication's problems. I'm rather surprised that you didn't
>realize that.
>
>==========
>
>Response to Carl #2
>
> > ........ maybe we should take a hard look at what each
> > chapter is doing to remove any chapter that does not feel it can handle
>the
> > situation.
>
>I agree, but others do not.
>
> > But also because I believe and still do that if I could show everyone
>the
> > finished product that someone would feel enough guilt to help.
>
>Unfortunately, human nature being what it is, about 90% of any group are
>quite willing to let the other 10% do all the work. I saw this in our
>Doctor Who club, and we see it here. Makes no difference what organization
>you're talking bout, IMO.
>
>===========
>Response to Carl #3
>
> > First let me address the list and mailing. The Quarterly should be in
>total
> > control of its subscription list.
>
>Sounds like Ken pretty much had the word on that one.
>
> >Let me propose here that when the CQ are printed and
> >labeled that they be dropped ship to their guild, checked for correct
>address, and
> > mailed at each guild's expense. This would increase each chapters
>control
> > over the CQ and satisfy all those opposed to electronic mail.
>
>An interesting idea, since we did the same thing with the Annual.
>
>
>=======================
>Response to Carl #4
>
> > >Reiterating what Jeff said, invariably, at least half of our members
>never
> > >received their CQs, if and when they were actually put on the rolls
>(thanks
> > >to an incredible records fiasco that started back in 1992 and went on
>for
> > >years). After 7+ years of CQs never getting to us or members never
>being
> > >on the ICG rolls in order to get them, Nora and I could no longer in
>good
> > >faith recommend subscribing to the CQ because they got bupkis for their
> > >money. (My blood pressure is a bit higher just thinking about it
>again).
>
> > Bruce,
> > sit down, take your medicine, chill out. I have had to write too many
>obits
> > this year. Now look at the comment above. Thank you.
>
>Sorry. This is a very LAAARGE horse that, until you took over, was still
>twitching
>
>. It's easy to say when you entire Guild's chapter records are hosed up,
>and Nora and I are standing up there saying to prospective members, "Hey
>join the ICG! There's this great publication called the Costumers
>Quarterly
>that's part of your membership". Like I said, I could not, in good
>conscience, recommend subscribing when there was no evidence of one coming
>out (at that time)
>
>
> >We even got articles from you and the sluts
> > (no minor feat).
>
>And Lisa A said:
>
> >Although I don't have any kind of axe to grind, really, I would like to
> >know, what became of the two articles I wrote and physically sent to be
> >published in the Quarterly, as much as a year ago?
>
>That horse is still a twitchin'. Nora and I sent in articles to various
>editors over the years, and they were, unfortunately at the time, somewhat
>time sensitive. By the time the CQs in question came out, it was a
>complete
>joke. I'm trusting that you will not have this problem.
>
>And getting submissions ain't no mean feat -- I'm always willing to help
>out. You will be getting more from me, but I would appreciate
>acknowledgement of receipt of said articles in the future (a private issue
>just between you and me).
>
> ====================
>
>Response to Carl #5
>
>
> > Two items at this point. First, no chapter is listed on the ICG rolls
>to
> > receive a CQ. Second, until I got confirmation from the president no
> > chapter would receive a CQ unless it contributed. Each chapter that
> > CONTRIBUTED did receive a copy. No one contributed.
>
>Okay, now I take issue with that. First of all, I believe, unless I'm
>mistaken, the CQs WERE mailed to the chapters in the past. And, I called
>Byron to confirm that policy, before I even inquired about that. Frankly,
>I
>don't have an arguement with that, per se. I just thought that something
>had changed all of a sudden.
>
>By the way, we know about the difficulty you had in getting the chapter
>info
>for the last CQ. Since you had to seek that info out yourself, those
>listings looked much like the Annual's.
>
>===========
>
>Response to Carl #6
> >
> > Final comment: it might be a good idea to made the chapter issue of the
>CQ
> > dependent on the receipt of the chapter newsletter. So that we here at
>CQ
> > headquarters (CQHQ) could see who was singing in the chorus or just
>moving
> > their lips>
>
>Hmm. An interesting notion, however, I know for a fact that there is one
>or
>more chapters that are such loose affiliations that they do not have a
>newsletter, or publish one very infrequently. But there might be other
>ideas out there....
>
>Bruce
>
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

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>cheerily, from WY right now,
>Dr. Bill
>

Dr. Bill,

If you make it into CO, the Millennium CG welcomes you for a visit.

Bruno

In a message dated 10/10/2000 1:03:31 PM Central Daylight Time,
ecmami@hotmail.com writes:

<< We are trying to encourage the submission of new stuff, at any rate. I,
personally, would like to see notice of future events in your areas. Stuff
that is over 3 months in the future. That way, when it gets published it
will still be timely. Most people do plan at least that far ahead, I think.

>>

BWA-HAHAHAHAHAHA!

3 months ahead? US? We only just last week realized we hadn't set up any
meetings for the remainder of the year!

(Of course, we had about 3-4 parties organized, but you know how that goes...)

Jeff Morris
Editor/Secretary yadda yadda yadda

Silly me! There I was fantasizing again. Never mind.

Elaine

>From: morrisjeff@aol.com
>Reply-To: ICG-D@egroups.com
>To: ICG-D@egroups.com
>Subject: Re: [ICG-D] ICG & CQ
>Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:21:10 EDT
>
>In a message dated 10/10/2000 1:03:31 PM Central Daylight Time,
>ecmami@hotmail.com writes:
>
><< We are trying to encourage the submission of new stuff, at any rate. I,
> personally, would like to see notice of future events in your areas.
>Stuff
> that is over 3 months in the future. That way, when it gets published it
> will still be timely. Most people do plan at least that far ahead, I
>think.
> >>
>
>BWA-HAHAHAHAHAHA!
>
>3 months ahead? US? We only just last week realized we hadn't set up any
>meetings for the remainder of the year!
>
>(Of course, we had about 3-4 parties organized, but you know how that
>goes...)
>
>Jeff Morris
>Editor/Secretary yadda yadda yadda

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com

--- Byron Connell <bconnell@MAIL.NYSED.GOV> wrote:

> John --
>
> Exactly what does the copyright notice say? No
> matter how much
> more convenient egroups may be, the ICG cannot
> accept a
> service that arrogates to itself the copyright on
> formal ICG
> business, and ICG-BOD <is> formal ICG business

Bryon --

This is a topic which has been the subject of much
discussion on various writing lists -- you will
*never* find a group touchier about copyright issues
than a group of writers. The pertinent paragraph from
the TOS is as follows:

11. CONTENT POSTED ON THE SERVICE

You agree that upon posting any material within a
group on the Service, you grant eGroups, and its
successors and assigns, a non-exclusive worldwide,
royalty free, perpetual, non-revocable license under
your copyrights or other intellectual property rights,
if any, in such material to distribute, display, and
reproduce such material to other members of that
group. You also grant eGroups the right to authorize
the downloading and printing in whole or in part of
any material that you have posted to a group on the
Service, by members for their personal use. You agree
to take whatever action necessary to protect your own
intellectual property rights in such Content,
including without limitation the posting of
appropriate copyright notices. Please refer to the
Company's Copyright Policy for further information on
the enforcement of intellectual property rights.

While the paragraph does refer to a "perpetual,
non-revocable license," it also clearly states that
the copyright is retained by the post originator.
Also, note that the license is specifically directed
to allow downloading to members of the group. If
you're not a member of the group, you can't access the
messages or files (unless the list owner allows the
archives to be open to the public, which I doubt John
has done).

As I've said, this has been a subject of loooong
discussion for the writing lists on E-groups. While a
few feel worried just because it is Yahoo!, the
majority I have heard -- including a copyright lawyer
who's also a romance writer -- feel that the intent is
to allow the posts to remain within the group and the
group only, with copyright retained by the poster.

Since maintenance is much easier (I act as tech
support for several lists that live on E-Groups), I
vote we stay here to make things easier for John.
Also, I think the stink that was raised when E-groups
moved the ads to the top may have had an effect --
they seem to be migrating back to the bottom. <g>

Carolyn Louaillier
carowriter@yahoo.com



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

> "First let me say here that the Quarterly Curse is and never has been never
> been anything <Snip> ... We had one who DIED and one who had
> serious health issues.

Sounds like a Curse to me ;-)
Hugs,
Susan

I have to agree with Lisa. I had no idea that the ICG did not have
independent memberships. The guild really needs to allow for people who
don't live anywhere near a local ICG chapter.

Nova

> It isn't perfect. But for people like me who didn't belong to the
> ICG until a chapter formed in my area (and then promptly went
> belly up) and now the bigger chapter to the north of me also
> having problems, having independent membership in the ICG may be
> the ONLY way I can give you my support. Because frankly, I don't
> want to get a newsletter from another chapter in another area,
> hearing about all the fun they are having and I can't get there.
> Thank you very much.
>

--
"Nothing is more despicable than respect based upon fear."
- Albert Camus


http://myweb.li.net/~nova/

>cheerily, from WY right now,
>Dr. Bill
>

Dr. Bill,

If you make it into CO, the Millennium CG welcomes you for a visit.

Bruno

Thanks much; but right now, I am only in CO insofar as my flights connect in
Denver. <wry>

grinning, Dr. Bill

Thanks!

I've deleted the macol.net address.

JohnO

de Doc wrote:

>
> > billerno@mail.macol.net deactivated on 10/8/2000
>
> This one looks like Bill Ernoehazy. He's been posting, maybe from a
> different address.
>
> Absolutely. I submitted a kill request on the older macol.net
> address, but
> I guess it didn't work so good.
>
> By all means kill it, and stick with my current address.
>
> cheerily, from WY right now,
> Dr. Bill
>
> eGroups Sponsor
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> ICG-D-unsubscribe@egroups.com

lisa58@juno.com wrote:

>
> Hi--I personally would be interested in finding out more about costume
> and masquerade at Charlotte in 2004 (as a costumer and a supporter of
> that bid).

http://www.scenic-city.com/charlotte2004/
is the main Bid Page

http://www.cdc.net/~stringer/Charlotte2004.htm
is the Masquerade info page.

You can also join in the active discussions on eGroups:

http://www.egroups.com/group/charlotte2004
is the general discussion list

http://www.egroups.com/group/charlotte2004masque
is the masquerade discussion list.

If you check the archives, you will see that I have been *very* active
on the Masque list.

JohnO

Carolyn --

Thank you. I find this language acceptable.

Byron

>>> carowriter@yahoo.com 10/10/00 06:16PM >>>

--- Byron Connell <bconnell@MAIL.NYSED.GOV> wrote:

> John --
>
> Exactly what does the copyright notice say? No
> matter how much
> more convenient egroups may be, the ICG cannot
> accept a
> service that arrogates to itself the copyright on
> formal ICG
> business, and ICG-BOD <is> formal ICG business

Bryon --

This is a topic which has been the subject of much
discussion on various writing lists -- you will
*never* find a group touchier about copyright issues
than a group of writers. The pertinent paragraph from
the TOS is as follows:

11. CONTENT POSTED ON THE SERVICE

You agree that upon posting any material within a
group on the Service, you grant eGroups, and its
successors and assigns, a non-exclusive worldwide,
royalty free, perpetual, non-revocable license under
your copyrights or other intellectual property rights,
if any, in such material to distribute, display, and
reproduce such material to other members of that
group. You also grant eGroups the right to authorize
the downloading and printing in whole or in part of
any material that you have posted to a group on the
Service, by members for their personal use. You agree
to take whatever action necessary to protect your own
intellectual property rights in such Content,
including without limitation the posting of
appropriate copyright notices. Please refer to the
Company's Copyright Policy for further information on
the enforcement of intellectual property rights.

While the paragraph does refer to a "perpetual,
non-revocable license," it also clearly states that
the copyright is retained by the post originator.
Also, note that the license is specifically directed
to allow downloading to members of the group. If
you're not a member of the group, you can't access the
messages or files (unless the list owner allows the
archives to be open to the public, which I doubt John
has done).

As I've said, this has been a subject of loooong
discussion for the writing lists on E-groups. While a
few feel worried just because it is Yahoo!, the
majority I have heard -- including a copyright lawyer
who's also a romance writer -- feel that the intent is
to allow the posts to remain within the group and the
group only, with copyright retained by the poster.

Since maintenance is much easier (I act as tech
support for several lists that live on E-Groups), I
vote we stay here to make things easier for John.
Also, I think the stink that was raised when E-groups
moved the ads to the top may have had an effect --
they seem to be migrating back to the bottom. <g>

Carolyn Louaillier
carowriter@yahoo.com

Nova --

The ICG is not a membership organization; it's a federation of
clubs. The by-laws state that "Each and every member of the
Corporation shall be a member of one or more of the chapters
approved by the Corporation" and that "Persons becme members
of the Corporation by becoming members of one or more of its
chapters." For many of us who shaped the by-laws initially in
1990, this was a vitally important point. We did not want a central
ICG to be independent of, let alone dictate to, the chapters. The
chapters were the dog; the ICG was its tail.

Maybe that doesn't work anymore. However, this year's annual
meeting defeated a motion to separate ICG membership from
chapter membership. The members defeated the motion for
miuch the same reasons they had been linked ten years ago -- a
belief that separation would destroy the local chapters. Instead,
they extended the life of a special committee on ICG membership
and charged it to consider other options.

Right now, the ICG has no restriction that would limit membership
in a chapter to one that is close by. In fact, the by-laws provide
that "The chapter or chapters to which any member of the
Corporation shall belong shall be within the sole discretion of that
member, provided that the member is affiliated with one of the
approved chapters of the Corporation."

This provision does allow for costumers who don't live near a
chapter. I believe that a number of chapters, in addition to the
Pups, have members who live at a distance from their primary
geographic area. The Pups' area is New York and New Jersey,
but we have members in Massachusetts, Connecticut,
Pennsylvania, Maryland, Georgia, and Oregon. No matter where
they live, they receive (1) all meeting notices, (2) "Puppy
Puddles," our newsletter (4 times a year), and (3) a subscription to
the Quarterly, since we still make it a benefit of membership.

Byron

>>> Nova@li.net 10/10/00 07:19PM >>>

I have to agree with Lisa. I had no idea that the ICG did not have
independent memberships. The guild really needs to allow for people who
don't live anywhere near a local ICG chapter.

Nova

> It isn't perfect. But for people like me who didn't belong to the
> ICG until a chapter formed in my area (and then promptly went
> belly up) and now the bigger chapter to the north of me also
> having problems, having independent membership in the ICG may be
> the ONLY way I can give you my support. Because frankly, I don't
> want to get a newsletter from another chapter in another area,
> hearing about all the fun they are having and I can't get there.
> Thank you very much.
>

--
"Nothing is more despicable than respect based upon fear."
- Albert Camus


http://myweb.li.net/~nova/




To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
ICG-D-unsubscribe@egroups.com

Albacon 2000, the New York Capital District's science fiction
convention, was held on October 6-8 at the Ramada Inn in
Schenectady, New York, with a membership of 261. The
Masquerade was held on October 7.

Masquerade Director: Christine Bunt

Judges: "Hal Clement" (Harry Stubbs) and Charles Lang

Winners

Young Fan Division --

First Prize: Sphinxian Tree Cat, Kaiti Ryan

Adult Division --

Third Prize: Lucretia of Borg, Susan de Guardiola
Second Prize: A Swimsuit for the New Millenium, Tina Connell
First Prize: Having a Bad Harem Day, Lisa Ashton

Byron

> The
> chapters were the dog; the ICG was its tail.

I think we've been seeing this in action for some time, as a matter of fact.
Some of the problems with getting articles for the Quarterly and Annual fall
into this area, I believe, as do problems with getting membership updates
from chapters. The structure of the ICG gives us no real "teeth" to put
behind any requirement we may impose on a chapter.

> Maybe that doesn't work anymore. However, this year's annual
> meeting defeated a motion to separate ICG membership from
> chapter membership. The members defeated the motion for
> miuch the same reasons they had been linked ten years ago -- a
> belief that separation would destroy the local chapters. Instead,
> they extended the life of a special committee on ICG membership
> and charged it to consider other options.

As I said elsewhere, the committee opted at that time to adopt a "wait and
see" attitude, to see if the issues that prompted the original motion would
correct themselves. We're still "waiting and seeing." :-)

> Right now, the ICG has no restriction that would limit membership
> in a chapter to one that is close by.

True, but here's the counter-argument that I've been seeing:

I live in West Podunk, Texas, 4+ hours from the closest ICG member, and 6+
hours from the center of activity of the closest chapter. I have a choice of
joining a number of chapters of the ICG, all of which will charge me money
to receive a newsletter filled with interesting events that I can't attend.
(In other words, the newsletter is useful only for it's entertainment value,
not the information it contains.) I will also have no say in anything the
chapter might do. (No ICG chapter I know of allows mail-in or phone voting
on matters brought before the chapter at a business meeting. Some chapters
allow voting by proxy, I believe, but I don't know, for example, if the Sick
Pups do.)

Why, then, should I pay good money for something from which I receive no
benefit other than to be allowed to pay *more* money for what I really
wanted, ICG membership?

I think this is the essence of Lisa and Nova's argument.

Ken Warren

Well, then, we're in no trouble at all. You see, Carl already has health
issues, and he's too ornery to die!

Elaine

>From: Jeff & Susan Stringer <Stringer@cdc.net>
>Reply-To: ICG-D@egroups.com
>To: ICG-D@egroups.com
>Subject: Re: [ICG-D] ICG & CQ
>Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:23:00 -0400
>
>
>
> > "First let me say here that the Quarterly Curse is and never has been
>never
> > been anything <Snip> ... We had one who DIED and one who had
> > serious health issues.
>
>Sounds like a Curse to me ;-)
>Hugs,
>Susan
>

_________________________________________________________________________
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