This is the last straw!

I QUIT!

Find yourselves a new president.

Byron

>>> raven@xprt.net 10/19/00 12:53PM >>>

As a result of ongoing as well as recent problems with the BoD and its
agents, at the most recent regular meeting of the Greater Portland Area CG
(Saturday, 14 Oct 2000), we voted unanimously to secede from the ICG. We
will remain an active, independant, local guild under our own auspices.


If there are any questions, comments, anything, please direct them to us in
private as we expect to be removed from the ICG list serves at any time
after this posting.



Signed,
Brenna Sharp, President
Greater Portland Area Costumers' Guild
Portland, OR

raven@xprt.net



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
ICG-BOD-unsubscribe@egroups.com

Today I was informed that our President, Byron Connell, resigned as
President of the ICG. This saddens me greatly. I am appalled at the
costuming community to which I joined just 1 year ago. I was under the
impression that we stuck together as a group. I thought that this was an
organization to be proud to be associated with. Now I find that people
would sooner turn their backs on friends, when things are complicated. This
situation that we are presently in was not done over night, nor was it done
in a years time. This is many years of a snowball effect that has been
trying to be corrected.

A lot of discussion has taken place. Many points of views have been heard.
There is no simple answer. I find it disheartening that a whole chapter
would disown its parent, instead of trying to help when in trouble.

I have worked this past year with Carl Mami, who took on the challenge of
the Costumer�s Quarterly. I am filled with pride every time I read an
article that was sent in. Yes, we have been receiving articles to be
published. What does surprise me though is that the chapters themselves as
a whole do not care. Individuals care. I sat here typing up articles,
reformatting articles received for placement in the CQ, but what I never saw
was information from the chapters as to what they did as a group, what cons
they attended, what events they went to, or what they wanted from the ICG.
So now that Carl has gotten all of the past issues done (without articles of
Victoria (granddaughter)) where is everyone? They are turning tail to run
and hide.

It has become evident that the CQ editors were not wholly responsible for
the past problems. The previous editors were limited in what they could do
because the chapters were not submitting complete membership information and
monies in a timely fashion. Carl and Elaine have heard this statement time
and time again. Now that Carl and myself have been caught in the same
situation, I find it hard to not voice my opinions. The CQ may have been a
thorn to a lot of people, but no one ever took the time to find the problem.
Well, here it is for the entire world to see. Look at it; help be a part
of the team to put the costume back together instead of tearing it apart.

I personally want for Byron to rethink his position about leaving. I do not
know what his predecessors were like, but in my book I feel he is doing his
very best at what was given to him.

Byron, please reconsider.

Dora Buck


_________________________________________________________________________
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Byron Connell wrote:

>
> This is the last straw!
>
> I QUIT!
>
> Find yourselves a new president.

Byron Don't!

Don't let one set of rats who made comments, suggestions or offers to
help (I just checked both archives) departing as though from a sinking
ship make you quit.

My apologies to the all the fuzzy little rats in the world.

JohnO

At 09:51 PM 10/19/00 -0700, John wrote:

>Don't let one set of rats who made comments, suggestions or offers to
>help (I just checked both archives) departing as though from a sinking
>ship make you quit.

I agree. Speaking as past president, I think Byron has done a fine
job. Many of the problems were passed to him from my service, as I
inherited them from prior presidents. Slowly, things are changing, and for
the better, but we need to have people like Byron, who are willing to give
their energies to this organization. And the rest of us need to support
these people and offer good will and suggestions as much as we can.

To sit back, not offer anything to the organization and then make a big
stink about picking up your toys and going home to sulk seems immature,
premature and on the uncalled-for and nasty side of things.

Byron, reconsider. You have a lot of support and good wishes behind you.

Peace,
Joy
__________________________________________
Joy Day - Reverse Glass Artist
(831) 622-9616 email:Joy@glassnebula.com
P.O. Box 3939, Carmel-by-the-Sea,CA 93921
http://www.glassnebula.com

Brenna Sharp said:

"...as we expect to be removed from the ICG list serves at any time
after this posting."

For what it's worth, I'm opposed to booting people off the list for
soi-disant political reasons.

If Brenna, or anyone, choose to unsubscribe, that's their choice. If they
offend the Webmaster, that's like teasing a bear and they deserve what
happens to them. (No offense to John, or any bears on the list, okay
John? John? JOHN?)

But booting people off the list on the basis of political correctness--I
would be very uncomfortable with that.

Bruce B.

"It's kind of fun to do the impossible." --Walt Disney

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

Byron--

Come back, come back!

I don't know what problems the GPACG has had with the ICG BoD, and I
don't really care. I hope that they too will reconsider, and decide to
come back. If they do, then their application should be considered at
that time on its own merits.

Byron, I believe there is a silent majority here on the list that
passively supports the ICG. We appreciate the organization and the people
who willingly invest their time and energy in running it. I enjoy the CQ,
and having been an SCA newsletter editor, I sympathize with all of the
oh-so-familiar editorial plaints. Carl, Elaine, Dora (and any minions),
thank you for all of your hard work--the CQ is a very much a tangible
connection to all of the Guild.

Byron, I do not have (and I don't believe I've ever had) any beefs with
you. If by the time you're reading this, you're going-going-gone, then
aloha (which also means "hello"). and my good wishes. If you're still
around and you still gotta go, I would only ask for an orderly
transition, whatever that means to you and the transitionee.
(Transitioner?)

If you're still in earshot of this list, I'd like to take the opportunity
to thank you for your decisive action re the CQ and the Guild's finances,
and your prompt notification of the membership: Thank you.

Please don't go away. If you really must go, please come back soon.

Bruce B.

"It's kind of fun to do the impossible." --Walt Disney

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

I stopped counting, it was overwhelmingly for staying on eGroups.

So long as the ads stay at the bottom the messages, personally I'm ok
with them.

The copyright issue was addressed.

I also like many of the features that eGroups provides to the Moderator.

So I won't be migrating the lists back to Best anytime soon.

JohnO

ICG WebMaster - John O'Halloran wrote:

>
> Just received a message the server has been replaced, but no data was
> restored. So it will be another few days before I restore the lists
> back to it.
>
> However, before I do that, I want to ask folks what they think about
> eGroups?

bbriant@juno.com wrote:

>
> Brenna Sharp said:
> If Brenna, or anyone, choose to unsubscribe, that's their choice. If
> they
> offend the Webmaster, that's like teasing a bear and they deserve what
> happens to them. (No offense to John, or any bears on the list, okay
> John? John? JOHN?)

I've yet to move all the Administrivia messages over,
but one of them lists only continued flaming and spamming
for being kicked off.

JohnO

ICG WebMaster - John O'Halloran wrote:

> Don't let one set of rats who made comments, suggestions or offers to

who have *NOT* made

> help (I just checked both archives) departing as though from a sinking
> ship make you quit.

One little word changes the whole meaning.

JohnO

Katherine Jepson forwarded:

>
> From: "Wayne & Leslie Carmichael" <carmichw@cadvision.com>
>
> Hi Katherine -- I tried to post this message on the Board,
> but since I don't subscribe, it wouldn't let me.

That's true, you must be a member to post a message or even see the
archive.

This setting is pretty standard to keep spammers from harvesting
addresses and/or posting to the list.

Also, I approve all subscriptions. As in the past, I will query
the potential member as to their identify, if the address is
suspicious looking.

JohnO

Hey look up at the From: field, I'm posting as John O'Halloran, not ICG
WebMaster, what follows are my comments and opinions, not the ICG's.

This is one of the things that has always amazed me, how the ICG has
been operating on a membership fees that in some cases is smaller then
some local chapters fees.

I'm all in favor of j/a/c/k/i/n/g/ /u/p/ raising the membership rates to
a reasonable level and bringing the CQ subscription back into the
central "cost" of membership. Say $20 a year.

It's a major change to the way the ICG is organized, but I'm also in
favor of centralizing membership. To become a member of the ICG you
send your money to the ICG, you get a card, button, certificate,
whatever and a subscription to the CQ. In the future maybe we'll do a
monthly newsletter, get you discounts at chain craft and fabric stores,
mail order houses, and member businesses (hey, a new class of membership
to boot), etc, etc

The Local Chapters can add the option of becoming a member of the ICG
via the LC and for every member that they sign-up, the ICG kickbacks
some portion of the ICG membership fee to the LC. Say $5, this still
leaves more then the CQ cost.

I would also add a multi-year option. Become a member for 2 years it's
$35, 3-$50, 5-$80, Lifetime-25x1 year rate (that might get us some quick
$500 checks).

Just my $20 worth of commentary. ;)

JohnO

Bruce --

They're the ones being "politically correct" <not> anyone else!
Don't blame the ICG. No one threatened them. They decided this
ALL by themselves.

Byron

>>> bbriant@juno.com 10/20/00 01:28AM >>>

Brenna Sharp said:

"...as we expect to be removed from the ICG list serves at any time
after this posting."

For what it's worth, I'm opposed to booting people off the list for
soi-disant political reasons.

If Brenna, or anyone, choose to unsubscribe, that's their choice. If they
offend the Webmaster, that's like teasing a bear and they deserve what
happens to them. (No offense to John, or any bears on the list, okay
John? John? JOHN?)

But booting people off the list on the basis of political correctness--I
would be very uncomfortable with that.

Bruce B.

"It's kind of fun to do the impossible." --Walt Disney

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
ICG-D-unsubscribe@egroups.com

In a message dated Fri, 20 Oct 2000 1:31:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
bbriant@juno.com writes:

For what it's worth, I'm opposed to booting people off the list for
soi-disant political reasons.>>

Wouldn't it be more likely that they'd be "booted off" because they're no
longer ICG members?

For my own view, if they want off, they can easily go to Egroups and do it
themselves...

JSM

> For what it's worth, I'm opposed to booting people off the list for
> soi-disant political reasons.

Let me point out that the ICG-D list is a general discussion list, with
unrestricted membership. I don't think it would be appropriate to boot them
just because they aren't ICG members, but I don't think that's likely to
occur, either. The other "official" lists are a different matter; they're
restricted to board members or officers, and the GPACG (through their own
actions) no longer has any qualifying members.

Ken Warren
Vice President, ICG

Several people have asked me to reconsider my resignation from
the Presidency.

I don't want this [expletive-deleted] job! I didn't ask for it; I was
talked into it after the Annual Meeting at CC 15. I bitterly regret
standing for re-election this year. Had I left at the end of my first
term, I would have done so with a feeling of real accomplishment.
My second term was OK, despite the discovery of "negative cash
flow" (to use Sharon Trembley's phrase) just before this year's
Annual Meeting. In May, the ICG's problems looked manageable.
I could, with a good conscience, have left others to solve them.
Since the, I've watched things go to h--- in a hand basket.

I feel humiliated. I thought I could help the ICG organize itself on a
business-like basis; I believed that my training and experience
equipped me to do so. I also wanted to see the Corporation grow.
I was delighted by the revival of Beyond Reality and the addition
of two new chapters. My first year saw a record or near-record
ICG membership and an impressive amount of retained earnings
from annual surpluses of revenues over expenditures.

I was a fool. The hemorrhaging began during my second term,
with a 50 percent decline in membership and a significant annual
deficit. The Board and I believed, incorrectly, that we had enough
cash on hand to finance annual deficits for a year or two, until we
could get things up again. We were wrong; after only five months,
the money was gone. Worse, membership has declined by a
further 50 percent.

In short, I have failed utterly to do what I hoped to do when I was
first elected to this office. I hoped to be a good president, one
who would be an asset to the Guild. In my opinion, I have been
one of the worst presidents we have had. I am ashamed of my
performance.

Just over a week ago, I sent the Board an e-mail message about
next steps. In it, I asked for a motion to increase the members'
subscription fee for The Costumer's Quarterly to $15 a year,
effective January 1, 2001, in order to cover the cost of printing
and mailing it. I also asked for a second to Bruce Mai's motion to
increase ICG dues to $10 a year and to make the ICG Annual a
benefit of membership. A week later, there has been neither a
motion to increase the CQ subscription nor a second to Bruce's
motion. The former proposal is not on the floor. The latter has
failed for lack of a second. The Board and I seem to be differing
markedly, since it apparently wants not even to discuss either
increase formally, and I do not know what direction it wants to
take.

A week after I suggested next steps to the Board, the former
GPACG seceded. In many ways GPACG was our model chapter.
It was current in its obligations to the ICG and communicated
regularly with other chapters through its newsletter.

A few days ago (I think - I do not have my files handy), Brenna
Sharp copied me on an e-mail message to the Special Committee
on Membership. I did not respond then, because her message
was not addressed to me. I want to do so now, insofar as I can
recall her points. As I recall, in general Brenna wanted more
support from the ICG for chapters. She was unhappy about the
legibility of GPACG's copy of the letter from the IRS granting our
tax-exempt status. Well, I'm sorry, but the copy is no less legible
than the original. There is NO way the Corporation could improve
on what the chapter has.

Brenna also thought the ICG should prescribe the duties of
<chapter> officers. No. Not as we are now organized. Chapters
have certain obligations to the ICG. How they organize
themselves to meet their obligations is a matter of total indifference
to us, so long as they meet those obligations.

People want me to reconsider. I'll think about it. I will be out of
town this weekend and away on business on Monday. I'll let you
know my decision on Tuesday.

Byron

As president of one of the newest chapters in the ICG (Utah Sew and Sewzz), I
did not feel it appropriate to comment on this dissolution/resignation
discussion. My general lack of experience made me feel I should trust the
wiser heads of those who go before to resolve it.

However, with discussions of resignations and dissolutions, I need to share
my experience with a national fan group dissolving. I can tell you it is a
sad mistake.

This experience tells me that by abandoning the ICG, the stronger chapters by
default abandon our weaker members and chapters, and all of our non-member
costumers and fans.

In the early 1980s, the Cartoon Fantasy Organization was the "ICG" of anime
groups. Regretably, politics rose up and caused the member chapters to
dissolve into independent groups thinking this would be better for all around.

It wasn't.

The ones most hurt are the weak chapters. A few major cities could keep going
just fine, but without a sense of being part of a national movement, the
smaller chapters quickly dissolved.

Next, any new fans had no national organization to look to to join or get
information from. Even in the major cities with existing chapters, new fans
often saw this local chapter as too "parochial" to join. Those in cities
without chapters had no way to even start something.

So right when interest in anime swelled in the US, the national group
disappeared. Anime fandom was never the same. With no national group, new
fans have no easy channel to more experienced members.

Finally, there was no way to leverage the national organization's perceived
"prestige" to gain con com support for video rooms, programming, etc. Worse,
hotel chains don't take local independent chapters seriously, so just when it
might have been possible to do a national anime con, our bargaining power
disappeared.

(Yes, I know that to us the group had little "prestige". But to the outside
world, a national body does seem "prestigious." I know as I have dealt with
our hotels here in Utah for Costume Con that the idea of an ICG is taken MUCH
more seriously than just the "Utah Costumers Guild" alone could.)

Rather than fan-organized anime cons then, commercial con runners began anime
events. So instead of a fun get-together of like-minded people, these events
feel nothing so much as like "Creation Cons" for Trek fans--high priced
spectator events.

Granted, the ICG has had its troubles. But I know of no group without them.
But there would be no Utah guild without the ICG, so I for one want to see it
continue. I hope other chapters feel the same way.

And unlike the CFO, who's president was a major part of its problems, our ICG
president, Byron, has been remarkably candid, extremely committed and as
regular as clockwork in reporting to us chapters. I don't think the ICG could
have a finer president in this tough time. I too hope he reconsiders.

David Doering
President
Utah Costumers Guild

John and all,

The move to centralize the ICG membership would be difficult and just
reverse the flow of paperwork.

For example, you would send your individual ICG membership check
along with whatever available options such as CQ, monthly newsletter,
local membership, a la carte to the ICG treasurer (?) or a new post
of membership coordinator (for the sake of discussion).

The membership coordinator would then take care of the records and
then at some point (quarterly?) send an update to each local chapter
along with a check for the local dues for the newbies and renews
letting them know who is a member of their local chapter.

You were just talking about US chapters? Or would UK, Canadian and
Australian members need to send their remittance in US dollars? Then
the beleaguered coordinator find a way to send currency back?

Maybe a combo method could be formed.

Sharon Trembley
ICG Treasurer

Last time on 90210, Sharon Trembley said,

>The membership coordinator would then take care of the records and
>then at some point (quarterly?) send an update to each local chapter
>along with a check for the local dues for the newbies and renews
>letting them know who is a member of their local chapter.

I think the idea here--if I'm interpreting things right-- is that a person
would have three options of joining an official costume organization: s/he
could join the International Guild, the Local Guild, or Both. That way a
costumer can be part of a group (or groups) at whatever monetary level s/he
can afford. Membership rosters would be kept separate; no need for the
international membership coordinator to send a list to the local group as
to who's in the group (or vice versa). The local group would already be
tracking their own members.


Jennifer Kelley
secretary, Chicagoland Costumers' Guild

ICG WebMaster - John O'Halloran wrote:

>
> That's true, you must be a member to post a message or even see the
> archive.
>
> This setting is pretty standard to keep spammers from harvesting
> addresses and/or posting to the list.
>
> Also, I approve all subscriptions. As in the past, I will query
> the potential member as to their identify, if the address is
> suspicious looking.
>
> JohnO

Dear John,

I meant no criticism, I was just too lazy to figure out how to delete the
personal part of the message before I forwarded it!

I'm glad we are safeguarded from spammers.

-- Katherine

After several work days, I have just checked my E-mail and been shocked.

If Byron has resigned, we have lost an effective and powerful
administrator.

-C.

Dear list,

I have been wanting to respond for some time to issues related to the
Australian Costumers' Guild's participation in the ICG, general financial
issues, and the Costumers' Quarterly problems but, since the problems arose
on the list a fortnight ago, I have waited to get information together
before throwing anything more into the ring.

In fact, this posting will go out in four parts to (A) avoid becoming one
giant letter and (B) to capsule particular issues. Inevitably, there will
be cross-pollination between the postings so, if anything requires
clarification, you may have to trawl through them all. I am sorry about
that but, hell, with work, other guild duties and a feeble attempt at a
social life, I don't have time for a heap of footnotes, a bibliography, and
all the rest of it. I hope, however, the points will be clear enough and
taken in the constructive manner they are intended.

The postings will be headed:

ACG as part of the ICG
RAISING ICG FEES
COSTUMERS' QUARTERLY and CQ in AUSTRALIA (& funding in general)
E-CHAPTERS & MEMBERS WITHOUT CHAPTERS

It has been a bit of running around, E-mailing around and phoning around to
get the information together and not the ideal way of spending my last few
weeks as president before our own annual general meeting. I will be
standing down as president at that time to concentrate fully on Costume-Con
20.


ACG as part of the ICG:
The Australian Costumers' Guild has always been happy to be a part of the
ICG but it must be pointed out that this relationship has always been
difficult in spite of best efforts.

I was surprised to learn that the ACG had not renewed as part of the
international organisation and, on inquiring, discovered that arrangements
had been overlooked for payment of the $1 per member amount - the cause is
largely a lack of communication between board members at this end. That has
since been rectified and our ICG dues have been arranged over the last week
or so. As local president, I take responsibility for the mix up at this
end, however:

It must be pointed out that this has dragged on for so long thanks to a
four-month delay in getting a response to our treasurer's request to the
ICG as to where any such payment should be made.

This is a continuation of an ongoing problem of communication between ICG
management officers and chapter officers.

The Australian Costumers' Guild has been a member of the ICG since 1992,
first as a sub chapter of the CGW then, from 1993, as a full chapter.

At no point since 1992 have we received any receipt or formal note that
payment has been received in spite of requests. The requests have dwindled
over recent years - apathy sets in easily in such circumstances. Let us
just hope that the Australian Taxation Office which is far harsher than its
North American counterparts do not decide to audit us.

In fact, from the beginning, getting any information from the ICG about
payment amounts, payment times and payment addresses has been almost
impossible. Delays, arm-twisting and something bordering on nagging have
worn down local board members given the task.

Clearly, something has to be done about this. And now. The ICG, although a
group of like-minded people, must begin to handle financial matters better
if any of the above is an indication. Whether you like it or not, we must
manage our money in the same way that any financial or commercial
enterprise does. This includes making payment methods easy, not
obstructive. It also means responding.

Not doing so is irresponsible. We cannot rely upon an anonymous two grand
every time we get our arses caught in the barbed wire.

A complete list of officers, their duties, and their contact details needs
to be drawn up and distributed to all chapters. Likewise, a complete list
of requirements for ICG chapters and the ICG itself needs to be drawn up.
These lists need to be updated annually. If such lists already exist,
recent events prove that they are inadequate and must be re-drawn. Further,
disciplinary action must be available for officers who, though
carelessness, do not fulfill their tasks. Here in the ACG, we have the
power to fine, suspend or expel members.

-C.

Dear list,

I have been wanting to respond for some time to issues related to the
Australian Costumers' Guild's participation in the ICG, general financial
issues, and the Costumers' Quarterly problems but, since the problems arose
on the list a fortnight ago, I have waited to get information together
before throwing anything more into the ring.

In fact, this posting will go out in four parts to (A) avoid becoming one
giant letter and (B) to capsule particular issues. Inevitably, there will
be cross-pollination between the postings so, if anything requires
clarification, you may have to trawl through them all. I am sorry about
that but, hell, with work, other guild duties and a feeble attempt at a
social life, I don't have time for a heap of footnotes, a bibliography, and
all the rest of it. I hope, however, the points will be clear enough and
taken in the constructive manner they are intended.

The postings will be headed:

ACG as part of the ICG
RAISING ICG FEES
COSTUMERS' QUARTERLY and CQ in AUSTRALIA (& funding in general)
E-CHAPTERS & MEMBERS WITHOUT CHAPTERS

It has been a bit of running around, E-mailing around and phoning around to
get the information together and not the ideal way of spending my last few
weeks as president before our own annual general meeting. I will be
standing down as president at that time to concentrate fully on Costume-Con
20.


COSTUMERS' QUARTERLY:
I am not superstitious, I have never been superstitious, I do not believe
in a curse. The Quarterly has fallen prey to a shocking series of mishaps
over the years, mishaps that date well beyond our joining the ICG in 1992.
It is apparent that these problems have been amplified by the concerns
addressed in my other postings today.

To mention "the Curse of the Quarterly" may be a fun shorthand but is
destructive. It allows a mindset, and excuse and a fatalism that nothing
can be done.

We may never solve the string of mishaps the newsletter has suffered
without a wholesale restructuring. Such a restructuring would involve
turning it into a commercial magazine, largely defeating the community feel
I think guild members want to retain.

We can, however, minimise the impact of the problems by reviewing and
acting upon the review of the thing as a whole.

I will not address this matter as an occasional contributor to the
Quarterly or as a member of its editorial advisory board, but as a
professional writer, journalist and sub-editor of industry publications
serving similar needs to the Quarterly.

The only problem I can see is in distribution of the thing. People will not
submit to a magazine they do not get. Chapters cannot publicise a magazine
they do not see. Members cannot enthuse over a magazine they do not have.

Is the problem a lack of contributions? Fine, put out a smaller issue with
quality contents.

Is the problem a lack of funds? How much is needed and what can be done to
minimise costs?

Is the problem in physical distribution? Keep a split between the editor
(assembling the magazine) and the distributor (sending the thing out). It
lessens the workload and opens the opportunity to involve more people -
like it or not, this guild is a community and any community that does not
actively involve all who are willing will die.

If you really do not believe that more people want to become involved, you
have an attitude problem, fix it; or they have an attitude problem, fix it.
People will not hook up with losers and as long as we accept that the
Quarterly is a cursed publication, it will be seen as a loser.

If you do not believe that any of the above can be done, shut up, get out
and let the rest of us get on with it.

CQ in AUSTRALIA:
The last issue of the Quarterly received here was a single, bound issue of
Volume 11, 3 / 4, 1998 which has not been distributed.

As with everyone else, distribution of the Quarterly has been a problem for
reasons that have been mulled over on the list, at meetings and wherever
else members meet.

Inquiries to current and former board members of the Australian Costumers'
Guild have revealed some of the local problems associated with the
Quarterly distribution.

It was discovered some years ago that to send Quarterlies from the US would
cost between $8 and $13 per issue. To reduce this, a plan was put forward
and accepted that a master of each issue would be sent to Australia to be
printed and posted from this end with a fee to be paid to the ICG. To
reduce the costs even further, the master would be sent electronically.
There has never been a response to our request to set or negotiate this
fee.

Local members who have been enthusiastic supporters of the notion of an
international newsletter and contributors to it have expressed
disappointment that nothing seems to have been successfully done to
straighten any of its problems out. The point has far passed where we, the
ACG board, are no longer willing to keep the Quarterly problems private -
members deserve to know the full facts.

Our members, like those in other places I suspect, do not have a sense of
ownership of the Quarterly which, with due respect to the online lists,
remains the best format for members to exchange ideas and news.

From this end, myself specifically, there have been offers to assist or
help find assistance to editors.

In short, as with many other areas, we need better communications; and the
ICG will have to accept notions of decentralisation of the Quarterly
distribution or drown in a range of international postage costs.

-C.

Dear list,

I have been wanting to respond for some time to issues related to the
Australian Costumers' Guild's participation in the ICG, general financial
issues, and the Costumers' Quarterly problems but, since the problems arose
on the list a fortnight ago, I have waited to get information together
before throwing anything more into the ring.

In fact, this posting will go out in four parts to (A) avoid becoming one
giant letter and (B) to capsule particular issues. Inevitably, there will
be cross-pollination between the postings so, if anything requires
clarification, you may have to trawl through them all. I am sorry about
that but, hell, with work, other guild duties and a feeble attempt at a
social life, I don't have time for a heap of footnotes, a bibliography, and
all the rest of it. I hope, however, the points will be clear enough and
taken in the constructive manner they are intended.

The postings will be headed:

ACG as part of the ICG
RAISING ICG FEES
COSTUMERS' QUARTERLY and CQ in AUSTRALIA (& funding in general)
E-CHAPTERS & MEMBERS WITHOUT CHAPTERS

It has been a bit of running around, E-mailing around and phoning around to
get the information together and not the ideal way of spending my last few
weeks as president before our own annual general meeting. I will be
standing down as president at that time to concentrate fully on Costume-Con
20.



RAISING ICG FEES:
I have mentioned my reaction to this in a previous E-mail to the list but
will briefly repeat it here:

As they have been put, the rises of $3 or $10 per member per year have no
foundation. What survey of guild needs has been undertaken to arrive at
either figure? The truth from a marketing point of view is that many
members already believe the ICG does not properly service it's membership,
asking for more money without specifying what that money is for will, I
think, begin an exodus.

-C.

Dear list,

I have been wanting to respond for some time to issues related to the
Australian Costumers' Guild's participation in the ICG, general financial
issues, and the Costumers' Quarterly problems but, since the problems arose
on the list a fortnight ago, I have waited to get information together
before throwing anything more into the ring.

In fact, this posting will go out in four parts to (A) avoid becoming one
giant letter and (B) to capsule particular issues. Inevitably, there will
be cross-pollination between the postings so, if anything requires
clarification, you may have to trawl through them all. I am sorry about
that but, hell, with work, other guild duties and a feeble attempt at a
social life, I don't have time for a heap of footnotes, a bibliography, and
all the rest of it. I hope, however, the points will be clear enough and
taken in the constructive manner they are intended.

The postings will be headed:

ACG as part of the ICG
RAISING ICG FEES
COSTUMERS' QUARTERLY and CQ in AUSTRALIA (& funding in general)
E-CHAPTERS & MEMBERS WITHOUT CHAPTERS

It has been a bit of running around, E-mailing around and phoning around to
get the information together and not the ideal way of spending my last few
weeks as president before our own annual general meeting. I will be
standing down as president at that time to concentrate fully on Costume-Con
20.


E-CHAPTERS AND MEMBERS WITHOUT CHAPTERS:
The concept of an E-chapter of the guild was raised some time back and,
after long and fair discussion, decided against. That it has been
resurrected reminds me of the backward attitude of a political lobby that
lost a referendum here recently: What part of the word no don't they
understand?

The idea of members without chapters as floated recently is an interesting
one but ultimately falls into the same category as an E-chapter. We, as a
guild, have enough trouble administering the needs of members who are
within the lobby opportunities of a chapter. Accepting members without
chapters will probably lead to the formation of a chapter for members
without a chapter and on and on and on...

There are already a couple of membership formats in place for costumers in
remote areas - or areas that are geographically distant from existing
chapters.

One option is to join the closest chapter or even a chapter that is most
active in the particular costuming interest of the new member. I remember
taking a world globe and a ruler to discover my "local chapter" when I
wanted to join the guild.

The other option, should there be a small group in some area, is to create
a sub chapter. The Australian Costumers' Guild started that way and quickly
grew to full chapter status - not a bad thing. Australia has administered
several sub chapters across the continent over the years.

-C.

Hi Sharon -

I'm writing to everyone but in particular to you. As the
treasurer of another National Fan Run Organization (been there,
done that, still wearing out the t-shirt (or why I can't do more
for this group NO TIME), let me tell you how we have it
organized.

As I said in one of my earlier posts, we have chapters, called
branches. They run basically independent of the national
organization. I send money to the national organization for my
membership and the national publications. Locally, we currently
don't have dues, but we have in the past to defrey costs for the
local group only. Nationally we support a monthly newsletter, a
quarterly scholarly journal, a supposedly annual creative
magazine, a small press publishing house, and an annual
convention. There isn't a lot of money for all this, but there is
enough.

Our national Secretary for Branches communicates with the local
groups, makes sure they are current with the Board's thoughts
about where the group is headed, and also lets the rest of us
know what the other branches are doing. Reports from the branches
are encouraged to be sent to the monthly publication, and their
members send articles to the quarterly. We also run an Activity
Calendar in the monthly newsletter and on the national web site.
Several branches also have local web sites. The starting point
for all this is www.mythsoc.org.

This all grew out of something very much like ICG. We evolved
into this conglomerate, and it does seem to be working.

My Job? The subscriptions secretary handles all the deposits he
receives. I get the deposits from our small press. And I pay the
bills. Our membership secretary keeps track of everyone's
membership/subscriptions and duns those who are running out. They
send their money to the subscriptions secretary, who then sends
me finished deposit slips and records of new/renewing members to
the membership secretary. COAs go straight to the membership
secretary.

Each convention sets up its own books, I just give them their
seed money and keep an eye on them, and deposit the profits <g>.
Well, except for this year, which is being run by my local
branch, and well, I already had a Society checking account...

My job, though busy, is hardly a ton of work.

Byron, Our membership has been falling off too. I think this
economy, although booming, is leaving most people with less "fun"
money, and we are feeling the effects.

Anyways, I hope I have it clearer to you what could be involved
in this shift.

There would be one suggestion and that is that the membership
secretary and the subscriptions secretary should be the same
person. Our subscriptions person has been around for centuries
and so we keep him on, even though he doesn't like computers and
so when we computerized the membership list, we had to bring on
someone else to handle it. It really doesn't need to be a two
headed job.

Anypath, that's my notes on this, again. Just because, like I
said, been there, enjoyed the ride and now wearing out the
t-shirt.

Mythically yours,

Lisa

Sharon Trembley wrote:

> John and all,
>
> The move to centralize the ICG membership would be difficult
> and just
> reverse the flow of paperwork.
>
> For example, you would send your individual ICG membership
> check
> along with whatever available options such as CQ, monthly
> newsletter,
> local membership, a la carte to the ICG treasurer (?) or a new
> post
> of membership coordinator (for the sake of discussion).
>
> The membership coordinator would then take care of the records
> and
> then at some point (quarterly?) send an update to each local
> chapter
> along with a check for the local dues for the newbies and
> renews
> letting them know who is a member of their local chapter.

Let the local groups keep tabs on themselves. Do NOT have a
national clearing house for this. Why do we need one? Local and
ICG memberships should be independent of each other. Anything
else is suicidal. Unless you like driving yourself nuts.

> In fact, from the beginning, getting any information from the ICG
> about
> payment amounts, payment times and payment addresses has been
> almost
> impossible. Delays, arm-twisting and something bordering on nagging
> have
> worn down local board members given the task.
>
> Clearly, something has to be done about this. And now. The ICG,
> although a
> group of like-minded people, must begin to handle financial matters
> better
> if any of the above is an indication. Whether you like it or not,
> we must
> manage our money in the same way that any financial or commercial
> enterprise does. This includes making payment methods easy, not
> obstructive. It also means responding.
>
> Not doing so is irresponsible. We cannot rely upon an
> anonymous two grand
> every time we get our arses caught in the barbed wire.

Bravo! I was surprised to see the amount of that donation, too. But we can't
rely on anonymous benefactors to bail us out again.

> A complete list of officers, their duties, and their contact
> details needs
> to be drawn up and distributed to all chapters.

It would be nice to point to the web site, but unfortunately that
information doesn't exist there, at least not all of it. And besides, though
I'm definitely involved in the internet in a cutting edge way, I've
apparently adopted the position of a neo-Luddite on the subject. Now how'd
that happen? :-)

Here's *my* contact information:

Ken Warren
ICG Vice President
1139 Woodmere Road
Pottstown, PA 19464
USA
+1.610.323.0027
kenw@voicenet.com

> Likewise, a
> complete list
> of requirements for ICG chapters and the ICG itself needs to
> be drawn up.

Check the bylaws and standing rules. All the requirements are there. Note:
the standing rules on the web site are somewhat out of date. The
Parliamentarian (Pierre Pettinger) is responsible for maintaining the
history of the bylaws and the standing rules.

> These lists need to be updated annually. If such lists already exist,
> recent events prove that they are inadequate and must be
> re-drawn. Further,
> disciplinary action must be available for officers who, though
> carelessness, do not fulfill their tasks. Here in the ACG, we have the
> power to fine, suspend or expel members.

Personally, I agree, but I see this as going over like a lead balloon. In
particular, the "power to fine" part. Though I like the idea; giving the ICG
a way to enforce that people must do the jobs they accept isn't a bad
idea...

Ken Warren
Vice President, ICG

> E-CHAPTERS AND MEMBERS WITHOUT CHAPTERS:
> The concept of an E-chapter of the guild was raised some time
> back and,
> after long and fair discussion, decided against. That it has been
> resurrected reminds me of the backward attitude of a
> political lobby that
> lost a referendum here recently: What part of the word no don't they
> understand?
>
> The idea of members without chapters as floated recently is
> an interesting
> one but ultimately falls into the same category as an
> E-chapter. We, as a
> guild, have enough trouble administering the needs of members who are
> within the lobby opportunities of a chapter. Accepting members without
> chapters will probably lead to the formation of a chapter for members
> without a chapter and on and on and on...

E-chapters and members without chapters are two facets of a progression
toward a centralized organization for the ICG. That would be centralized as
in "ICG membership is separate from chapter membership. You can join one
without joining the other, and they are administered separately."

My biggest fear, as regards a reorganization along those lines, is that we
could very easily create a great deal more work for the people who are
responsible for getting the business of the ICG (and chapters) done. And I
don't think that would be a good idea.

> There are already a couple of membership formats in place for
> costumers in
> remote areas - or areas that are geographically distant from existing
> chapters.
>
> One option is to join the closest chapter or even a chapter
> that is most
> active in the particular costuming interest of the new
> member. I remember
> taking a world globe and a ruler to discover my "local chapter" when I
> wanted to join the guild.

I know that there are people who don't want to do this; they feel that they
will receive no value from such an arrangement. See my post late last week
(I think) for an example of why that might be.

> The other option, should there be a small group in some area,
> is to create
> a sub chapter. The Australian Costumers' Guild started that
> way and quickly
> grew to full chapter status - not a bad thing. Australia has
> administered
> several sub chapters across the continent over the years.

It seems to me that this works only if there is a sufficient concentration
of costumers in an area to form a locus of organization. It doesn't really
address the needs of the single costuming household several hours from the
nearest chapter.

Ken Warren
Vice President, ICG

Huh boy. Okay. I'll try to get through this quickly.

First of all, I've sent an e-mail to the ICG_BOD with this central point --
in order to regain the confidence and trust of the Guild, the BOD must come
up with some decisions on some of these issues, and then bring them here and
the chapter members. We're getting bogged down with various sub-issues and
not taking them in any logical order. Hence, nothing is getting done.
Since we're talking about this:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sharon Trembley" <callisto@netlabs.net>

> John and all,
>
> The move to centralize the ICG membership would be difficult and just
> reverse the flow of paperwork.
>
> For example, you would send your individual ICG membership check
> along with whatever available options such as CQ, monthly newsletter,
> local membership, a la carte to the ICG treasurer (?) or a new post
> of membership coordinator (for the sake of discussion).
>
> The membership coordinator would then take care of the records and
> then at some point (quarterly?) send an update to each local chapter
> along with a check for the local dues for the newbies and renews
> letting them know who is a member of their local chapter.
>
> You were just talking about US chapters? Or would UK, Canadian and
> Australian members need to send their remittance in US dollars? Then
> the beleaguered coordinator find a way to send currency back?

She raises some very valid points. That's why I lean away from
centralization.
While I thought Lisa's example was terribly complicated, her most recent
post clarified things quite a bit, and I think this model is worth studying.

Chris B's point of "Where's the Beef?" if we increase the membership dues is
also one of mine, and I've put some proposals on the table for the Board,
which I hope we'll discuss here WHEN THERE IS SOMETHING DECIDED to get
feedback on. And I heartily agree that communication within the Guild has
been lackadaiscal. Despite e-mail, it still has a 1980s mindset of
communicating within itself at time. If the Guild is to remain viable, this
mindset cannot continue. Better interaction is vital, especially if the
Guild becomes more attentive to what chapter is fulfilling its duties to
gather monies and send them to the parent organization. And I agree this
must include timely actions for lack of fulfillment of the minimum effort
expecte.

If I understand Chris correctly, I am not in favor of seperate records for
the Editor of the CQ and the Guild, per se. This is part of the reason the
SLCG's records were hosed up for so many years. That and poor and slow
communication.

E-chapters: Having gone back and forth on, I now am leaning away from
establishing an e-chapter or "national chapter". While I am sympathetic to
the far-flung costumers, I thought abut how Mr. Mike had said that while he
liked being part of the SLUTS, he couldn't participate in our activities.
Frankly, by establishing a membership at the national/international level,
all that would be accomplished is that they'd get the CQ. If people want to
set up a forum under the aegis of the ICG (although, I don't see it being
much different than this list), fine -- they could still have a membership
to a local chapter. That would be their "in" to the virtual forum, based on
proof of membership -- after all, by being a member of a chapter, you are in
turn a member of the ICG. I don't see why a "chat" forum couldn't be
established on the same basis. I have my personal doubts of how viable
these forums would be, the way the Guild operates right now.

Leave this list open to anyone, but a seperate forum or forums just for
members of local chapters would be fine, if people want, but it's a
double-edged sword -- it would risk alienating non-ICG members here.

Bruce

I agree with Dora. Please, Byron, rethink your resignation. There is
no possibillity of finding anyone better qualified to lead the ICG.

Yours in costuming, Lisa A.
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
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Bruce Mai said:

>>Frankly, by establishing a membership at the national/international

level,
all that would be accomplished is that they'd get the CQ. If people want
to
set up a forum under the aegis of the ICG (although, I don't see it being
much different than this list), fine -- they could still have a
membership
to a local chapter. That would be their "in" to the virtual forum, based
on
proof of membership -- after all, by being a member of a chapter, you are
in
turn a member of the ICG.<<

I am in favor of a national chapter. This would allow isolated costumers
to join the ICG and receive national-level publications, which includes a
list of local chapters ("Hey, there's one close by! I'll join them!").
This also allows the non-isolated costumers to belong to a national
organization without having to join the local chapter.

Unfortunately, there is no guarantee that the local chapter will forward
the ICG membership money and information in a timely fashion. By
belonging to a national chapter, I know where my money's going and when
it's received, and by extension, who I can complain to.

I am also in favor of local chapters, since these are/can be/should be my
costuming buddies. I like a local newsletter--it's a tangible benefit
that comes in the mail with my name on it. And if the national
organization goes belly up, I've still got a local community.

Bruce B.

"It's kind of fun to do the impossible." --Walt Disney

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

In a message dated 10/20/2000 9:04:06 PM Central Daylight Time,
stilskin@netspace.net.au writes:

<< The concept of an E-chapter of the guild was raised some time back and,
after long and fair discussion, decided against. That it has been
resurrected reminds me of the backward attitude of a political lobby that
lost a referendum here recently: What part of the word no don't they
understand?

>>

Excuse me, Chris, but what part of the words "why not?" don't you understand?

There's been expression of interest here--strong enough that I believe the
issue should be considered. The Board and Guild chapter officers are elected
by the membership--which means if enough members are raising the issue and
asking that it be reconsidered, the officers have an obligation to listen and
reconsider.

Bruce Mai made the comment that in some ways the ICG suffers from an
80's-style mentality, and I'd have to agree. I'm tired of seeing new ideas
come up and get flatly rejected because "I don't think it can be done." Why
not say, "Why not see if it can be done?" What is the loss if we allow an
electronic chapter to give it a go and it fails? We've at least tried. It
can't be any worse than some of the chapters that have come and gone in the
last ten years.

I recommended to Byron recently that a membership census from all active
chapters be done to make sure records and dues are up to date--and that among
the information collected we find out just how many ICG members are online.
We would then have facts to back assertions. I for one would like to see the
occasional MIRC chat to discuss costuming topics, or just "stitch n bitch" as
it were.

JSM

Jeff Morris said:

> Bruce Mai made the comment that in some ways the ICG suffers from an
> 80's-style mentality, and I'd have to agree. I'm tired of seeing new ideas
> come up and get flatly rejected because "I don't think it can be done."

Why

> not say, "Why not see if it can be done?" What is the loss if we allow an
> electronic chapter to give it a go and it fails? We've at least tried. It
> can't be any worse than some of the chapters that have come and gone in

the

> last ten years.

Um, I want to go on record about my statement of a "1980's mentality" that
this referred to the slowness of communication, rather than a specific
criticism of close-mindedness to new ideas. In the past, a lot of
communication regarding vital Guild data depended on the US Snail which
often got lost and no one followed up. While we've had phones all along,
and now have e-mail, people still wait forever for responses or follow up,
rather than waiting a reasonable time and contacting parties again to get an
answer to correspondence. If something's not right, there seems to be a
certain inertia that sets in sometimes that prevents efforts being made to
investigate what happened (or didn't).

In a message dated 10/21/2000 11:30:08 PM Central Daylight Time,
casamai@primary.net writes:

<< Um, I want to go on record about my statement of a "1980's mentality" that
this referred to the slowness of communication, rather than a specific
criticism of close-mindedness to new ideas. In the past, a lot of
communication regarding vital Guild data depended on the US Snail which
often got lost and no one followed up. While we've had phones all along,
and now have e-mail, people still wait forever for responses or follow up,
rather than waiting a reasonable time and contacting parties again to get an
answer to correspondence. If something's not right, there seems to be a
certain inertia that sets in sometimes that prevents efforts being made to
investigate what happened (or didn't).

>>

It comes down to the same issue, Bruce. I've detected a strong reluctance to
take advantage of Internet resources--the electronic/no fixed location
chapter issue, an electronic CQ, etc.--because "it's not going to work".
Translated into: "This is the way we've always done things, and this is the
way it's going to be because we don't want to try it any other way."

JSM

--- morrisjeff@aol.com wrote:

> It comes down to the same issue, Bruce. I've
> detected a strong reluctance to
> take advantage of Internet resources--the
> electronic/no fixed location
> chapter issue, an electronic CQ, etc.--because "it's
> not going to work".
> Translated into: "This is the way we've always done
> things, and this is the
> way it's going to be because we don't want to try it
> any other way."

I beg to differ. IMHO, the internet is still only an
appropriate media for certain things. And I don't
think that's "old mentality" or resistance to change.

Regarding e-chapters and e-pubs:

At first, I thought an e-chapter would be wonderful.
However, I changed my mind when it dawned on me that
what I love (and now miss since moving) about
belonging to a local (physical) chapter was the
activities, the face-to-face interaction with fellow
members. What benefits would a member get from
belonging to an e-chapter? No workshops, no meetings,
no sewing circles, no events.... That leaves
publications, mailing lists and a membership card?
Well, then, that's what the ICG is now. I'm a member
and I have the option of getting the CQ, I belong to
the mailing list. All that's missing is the
"official" membership card to carry around.

If someone can come up with a way for an e-chapter to
be more enriching and active, then it would be a very
good thing indeed. I'm, personally, stuck for ideas
on that one. Other than traveling great distances
once or twice a year for some event. And there are
concerns and issues o'plenty involved with that.

As far as e-publications go, I like them. I take
advantage of them. And I have access to them.
However....

... as a member of any organization that I pay dues
to, if a newsletter or any other publication are
benefits of membership for my dues, I'd like more than
a some screens on my computer to show for it. (And
please don't tell me to "print a copy" for myself...I
don't have a printer.) I wouldn't want an e-pub to
replace the paper copy I get every month or every
quarter. I don't believe I'm alone in that thinking.
As the internet is 'public', if this is the only place
I go to retrieve this member benefit, I don't see
what's 'exclusive' (as a member benefit)about it.
Unless we want to password protect certain parts of
the web site. And I don't need another password in my
life right now!

There's also the question of how to serve members that
do not have a computer or access to the internet.
Strange as it may seem to some - there are people out
there who do not. How does one treat members in that
category? Charge them a premium (which is also a
penalty) because one has to print and mail the
publication to them?

Conclusions? Well, I truly don't believe an e-chapter
will succeed in the long (or even short) run. I
wouldn't object to establishing one, I just think it
would be a disappointment to the leadership and the
members.

I don't think that converting from paper to electrons
is going to resolve the problem of "missing"
publications either. (As an additional way of insuring
distribution of the CQ and perhaps generating more
interest, it would be great though! Suppose we began
publishing the current CQ on the web site a month
after mailing it?)

And, finally I don't believe we should raise ICG dues
without showing that is a value or good cause to do so
(others have been very eloquent on that subject so I
won't belabor that point).

I understand that we are all volunteers here. That
this may not be the only passion we have in life or
organization we're active in. And, more importantly,
our real lives get in the way, quite often. I believe
the real issue is communication and a feeling in some,
if not most of the local chapters that they are not
valued or at least not "very connected" to ICG prime.
(This might be a mutual feeling, come to think of it!)

Perhaps that is the value of utilizing the Internet...
fostering that feeling of being connected.

However I remain in no way convinced that charging
extra money or making all out and/or radical changes
to the way we "do business" is going to fix that basic
problem of communication.

JP
(back to lurking)


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/

A good number of vocal Sick Pups are not on-line or do not subscribe
to this list because of the large volume of e-mail it generates. The
move to e-groups makes it possible for those who don't want the
e-mail, like me, to read it on-line at the site so they'll be
notified
of the change to e-groups at our next meeting. Usually for
everyone's
benefit we spend a part of our meetings discussing in person the
issues raised on various lists.

Instead of an e-chapter, could various chapters take on these members
rather than the ICG putting together a central newsletter (in additon
to the CQ) for their benefit? Some chapters have a certain flavor
which may appeal to them or just publish a local newsletter
frequently
enough to make it worthwhile. Could we simply update the info that
our Corresponding Secretary has to entice people to join a certain
chapter? It could be someone'll just pick the cheapest one.

By default, I would suggest it be in the same country to avoid
currency issues. For example, someone in Nova Scotia join Western
Canada rather than UK or Northern Lights.

After all that, can anyone just join this discussion list? Wouldn't
that sort of be like an e-chapter?

Sharon

--- In ICG-D@egroups.com, J P <taknflyte@y...> wrote:
>
> --- morrisjeff@a... wrote:
>
> > It comes down to the same issue, Bruce. I've
> > detected a strong reluctance to
> > take advantage of Internet resources--the
> > electronic/no fixed location
> > chapter issue, an electronic CQ, etc.--because "it's
> > not going to work".
> > Translated into: "This is the way we've always done
> > things, and this is the
> > way it's going to be because we don't want to try it
> > any other way."
>
>
> I beg to differ. IMHO, the internet is still only an
> appropriate media for certain things. And I don't
> think that's "old mentality" or resistance to change.
>
> Regarding e-chapters and e-pubs:
>
> At first, I thought an e-chapter would be wonderful.
> However, I changed my mind when it dawned on me that
> what I love (and now miss since moving) about
> belonging to a local (physical) chapter was the
> activities, the face-to-face interaction with fellow
> members. What benefits would a member get from
> belonging to an e-chapter? No workshops, no meetings,
> no sewing circles, no events.... That leaves
> publications, mailing lists and a membership card?
> Well, then, that's what the ICG is now. I'm a member
> and I have the option of getting the CQ, I belong to
> the mailing list. All that's missing is the
> "official" membership card to carry around.
>
> If someone can come up with a way for an e-chapter to
> be more enriching and active, then it would be a very
> good thing indeed. I'm, personally, stuck for ideas
> on that one. Other than traveling great distances
> once or twice a year for some event. And there are
> concerns and issues o'plenty involved with that.
>
> As far as e-publications go, I like them. I take
> advantage of them. And I have access to them.
> However....
>
> ... as a member of any organization that I pay dues
> to, if a newsletter or any other publication are
> benefits of membership for my dues, I'd like more than
> a some screens on my computer to show for it. (And
> please don't tell me to "print a copy" for myself...I
> don't have a printer.) I wouldn't want an e-pub to
> replace the paper copy I get every month or every
> quarter. I don't believe I'm alone in that thinking.
> As the internet is 'public', if this is the only place
> I go to retrieve this member benefit, I don't see
> what's 'exclusive' (as a member benefit)about it.
> Unless we want to password protect certain parts of
> the web site. And I don't need another password in my
> life right now!
>
> There's also the question of how to serve members that
> do not have a computer or access to the internet.
> Strange as it may seem to some - there are people out
> there who do not. How does one treat members in that
> category? Charge them a premium (which is also a
> penalty) because one has to print and mail the
> publication to them?
>
> Conclusions? Well, I truly don't believe an e-chapter
> will succeed in the long (or even short) run. I
> wouldn't object to establishing one, I just think it
> would be a disappointment to the leadership and the
> members.
>
> I don't think that converting from paper to electrons
> is going to resolve the problem of "missing"
> publications either. (As an additional way of insuring
> distribution of the CQ and perhaps generating more
> interest, it would be great though! Suppose we began
> publishing the current CQ on the web site a month
> after mailing it?)
>
> And, finally I don't believe we should raise ICG dues
> without showing that is a value or good cause to do so
> (others have been very eloquent on that subject so I
> won't belabor that point).
>
> I understand that we are all volunteers here. That
> this may not be the only passion we have in life or
> organization we're active in. And, more importantly,
> our real lives get in the way, quite often. I believe
> the real issue is communication and a feeling in some,
> if not most of the local chapters that they are not
> valued or at least not "very connected" to ICG prime.
> (This might be a mutual feeling, come to think of it!)
>
> Perhaps that is the value of utilizing the Internet...
> fostering that feeling of being connected.
>
> However I remain in no way convinced that charging
> extra money or making all out and/or radical changes
> to the way we "do business" is going to fix that basic
> problem of communication.
>
> JP
> (back to lurking)
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE.
> http://im.yahoo.com/

Dear list,

These and related issues have received so many postings of late that it is
becomming difficult to distil them. No complaint there, the more
information and useful suggestions we can add, the better. It does mean
that some of the issues mentioned in this posting may have already been
covered but, still, when did a lack of knowledge ever stop anyone form
posting to a list?

I have noticed the moves to increase membership costs, increase CQ
subscription costs, and the idea of combining CQ and membership costs
canvassed this last weekend. I have already put my thoughts on the
membership subscription in another post and will not repeat here but I must
make mention of the CQ cost issues and, probably, ask a fundamental
question about the International Costumers' Guild.

The points here are from an Australian point of view, obviously, but may
also be applicable to Canadian and UK chapters.

As I have mentioned to the list in a CQ-related posting last week, the cost
of distributing the Quarterly to Australian members from the US base was an
expensive exercise a few years ago and probably moreso now. If the
suggestion put back then is no longer possible (printing from a master and
posting at this end, paying a fee to cover CQ creation and administration),
there are two options left:

1. The ICG wears the cost of posting the thing out and loses more money in
the exercise; or

2. An additional "foreign chapters'" fee be charged for non-US
subscriptions.

If the second option is taken, guild membership cost in Australia will have
to triple to cover ICG/Quarterly expenses. How many people on the list
would accept paying $90 per year for chapter membership?

If this is to be the case, the Australian Copstumers' Guild will have to
seriously consider whether it is worth having the Costumers' Quarterly as
part of its members' benefits.

So, from our point of view, what is left? The Australian Costumers' Guild
already produces a newsletter of between 16 and 22 quarto/A4 pages six
times every year, runs around a dozen workshops and other activities each
year, and assists other groups and organisations running events of interest
to costumers.

What can the ICG offer the ACG apart from the Costumers' Quarterly?

As mercenary as that question sounds, it is ultimately the question that
every chapter is going to have to ask as part of the review sparked over
the last fortnight.

(I am not gonna haze the question with a "what can you do for your
country?"counter-argument, I think much has already been suggested either
directly or by inferrence over recent weeks of discussion.)

I mentioned the dreaded decentralisation word in a posting last week and,
in the case of the Quarterly and perhaps other areas, the International
Costumers' Guild has a decidedly USA-centric attitude.

Now, before anyone goes frothing at the mouth and saying I am on some kind
of a Yank-bashing exercise, let me say that I am not. Still, it has to be
said, what is good for members in the United States is not always good for
those in the rest of the world. I can understand the attitude. The origin
of the ICG was a collusion of US-based costume groups joined, shortly
afterwards, by Canadian groups.

In spite of the best intentions of creating and international costumers;
community, the reality is that for most of its life, the ICG was only two
parts of the North American continent.

Things have grown since with the addition of Australian and UK chapters
plus - I believe - some individuals in other parts of the world.

We have already seen mention of an '80s mindset to communication within the
guild, this is compounded by a North American costing and administration
mindset.

So that cuts the question down from what can the ICG offer chapters to
something more fundamental, how serious is the ICG about being an
international organisation?

If the answer is truly serious about being so, a genuine change in
thinking, pricing and administration will have to be made.


-C.

PS: Not to labour points but the current suggestion to increase the CQ
subscription effective as of Jan, 2001, is an admirable one and an example
of solid, long term thinking but will not alleviate present financial
problems - as I understand it, a year or so's CQ's are still owed at the
old price. Additional action to fund the Quarterly is in order. Any
suggestions?

Byron don't quit! You are doing a fine job.

While I personally see no problem with someone paying the ICG Treasurer
directly it probably means a by-law modification. The ICG Treasurer should
also give us feedback on whether it would make her life more complicated or
not.

If currently a person can only join the Guild via a local chapter, but does
not wish to pay the local chapter fee, I do not see this as a problem . The
Sick Pups would allow this and I am sure other guilds would too. It would
mean paying for the ICG($1) only, or the ICG and quarterly ($9) but not
paying the local guild fees and getting their local publications. No big
deal.

Increase Dues

It has been a very, very long time since dues have been increased and
postage and printing costs have gone up in that time. Some fee increase is
obviously called for. It should be sane number based on the tasks that the
ICG must do.

Mailing list

There should be only one mailing list source for the Guild (for sanity sake)
! Having seen some copies of the Pup's list I know it has membership
status including ICG membership and whether or not the person is getting the
quarterly and their last issue. One problem I have had over the years is
getting feedback from the treasure's list so I could resolve differences
between my lists and the official one. I have managed to get the data by
asking for it enough times but the ICG-based chapter list should be issued
at least once a year to all local treasurers.

Publications

The current charter says that we are to publish something quarterly and by
precidence this has been a "magazine". Based on the realistic 2000 cost
for things, $8 is not enough. Getting some form of publication is more
important than how elaborate it is. Bells and whistles are great but
feedback for money spent is better for the organization. If it would make
the task easier a newsletter would do. A once-a-year How-To magazine would
be swell too, but optional. Even with just a newsletter, I still think fees
will have to be raised.

E-Chapters and all

The ICG-D@egroups.com list and the ICG homepage are already a
"International" Virtual Chapter. To make a National guild work there would
still need to be a central person to send fees to which would make it no
different than sending money via existing local guilds or the ICG treasurer.
Also, many people are still not on the internet and should not be handicaped
because of this.

Well its a nice clear but cold Monday here in NJ will Holloween swiftly
approaching!

Susan

Christopher raises some interesting points concerning international
membership in the Guild, especially as pertains to the Quarterly issue.
Although not as physically removed from the U.S, (no ocean between us, at
any rate) we are separated by our postal services. It is somewhat more
expensive to send the quarterly to us, and I do not believe that U.S.
Bulk rate applies to delivery in Canada. As I mentioned in a previous
posting, the few times we have received a single issue for printing and
distribution from here, it has worked fairly well, but wires have been
crossed in the past when I thought we had the arrangement in place, only
to receive a box of Quarterlies for re-distribution, with duty owing,
further elevating our costs.

We received at CC 18, from Carl's own hands, Volume 13, Number 1, which
we took home, printed and distributed to our membership. A few weeks
ago, we received the "Chapter copy" of Volume 13, Number 1 -- there was
no clear postmark on it, so we have no idea when it was sent. Someone
mentioned a subsequent issue, featuring an article by Byron on military
uniforms, but we have not seen this. Are we current or not?

Western Canadian chapter has proven itself willing to take on the expense
and effort required for redistribution of the Quarterly, but it would be
difficult to justify to our membership a significant increase in dues
(although, current ICG dues are so tiny, a moderate increase would be
acceptable). May I ask, how have the U.S. chapters with Canadian members
coped with the postal situation?

As far as having all Canadian members belong to our chapter, you must
remember that Canada is 5 1/2 time zones wide! When I first joined the
Guild, I was a member of Great White North out of Toronto (I live in
Calgary) -- I received their newsletter, never managed to attend any of
their events, and didn't receive a Quarterly for at least two years. At
time of writing, we don't have a chapter newsletter, so all remote
members could really expect is the Quarterly subscription and voting
rights.

I have no brilliant ideas for rectifying the situation, but the costs
must be clearly identified, and individual chapters may have to shoulder
more of the expense to have the Quarterly.

One further note: Byron, please reconsider your resignation.

-- Katherine Jepson

For John O'Halloran
My chapter leader wants to subscribe to this list but doesn't know how,
and I'm not sure what to tell her. How DOES a person get on the list?
--
Janice Dallas
Boston,MA area, USA
JaniceDals@MediaOne.net
"Just so, the girl has beauty, virtue, wit..."

Dear Folks,

This just in: The results of the Con-Version 17 masquerade (August
10-12, 2000) held in Calgary Alberta, Canada.

Best of Novice Class: "Sailor Moon" Elise Norman and Lyra Logan

Novice Runner-up: "Grey Dawn" Anne Gillcash

Sheer Cuteness Award; The Ahh Factor: "Next Generation" Sean Quinnell

Most Accurate Award: "Harry Potter and the Sorting Hat" Elizabeth Jepson

Best of Journeyman Class: Survivor Gone Bad" Rat Pack (Rose Tanchyk and
friends)

Best of Experienced Class: "Moment of Truth at GalaxyCon 19"
Costume-Con 19 Committee (Katherine Jepson, Eileen Capes, Cliff Samuels,
Wayne Carmichael, Pam Bowyer, Sean McLennan, Jason White and Michael
McAdam)

Judges' Choice Most Humourous: "Amidala's Holiday" Brenna Toblan

Judges' Choice Best Performance, Best Hip Swing and Best Shimmy:
"I-nanna, Queen of the Night" Diana Zimmerschied

Best of Show: "Moment of Truth at GalaxyCon 19" Costume-Con 19 Committee

Thank you to Kristiina Anderson for directing the show and supplying the
results.

-- Katherine

--- In ICG-D@egroups.com, Janice Dallas <JaniceDals@m...> wrote:

> For John O'Halloran
> My chapter leader wants to subscribe to this list but doesn't know

how,

> and I'm not sure what to tell her. How DOES a person get on the

list?

Via eMail send a blank message to:
ICG-D-subscribe@egroups.com

Via web (requires signing up for eGroups):
http://www.egroups.com/group/ICG-D
Then click on the {subscribe} button.

JohnO

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the ICG-D
group.

File : /Administrivia/Subscribe.txt
Uploaded by : icg@costume.org
Description : How do I subscribe to ICG-D

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Regards,

icg@costume.org

>The Local Chapters can add the option of becoming a member of the ICG
>via the LC and for every member that they sign-up, the ICG kickbacks
>some portion of the ICG membership fee to the LC. Say $5, this still
>leaves more then the CQ cost.
>
>I would also add a multi-year option. Become a member for 2 years it's
>$35, 3-$50, 5-$80, Lifetime-25x1 year rate (that might get us some quick
>$500 checks).

John,

I like that idea. Major charitable groups have done that for years.

Elaine

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Byron,

I think there is a strong feeling about you staying with the ICG. I can
certainly understand your frustrations; however, despite your own view of
your Presidency, you have done a remarkable job. It must have been far
easier to be president when the issues were only about masquerade guidelines
and such. And I remember how we all fought over those earth-shaking
decisions as if our very lives depended on them! I don't intend to belittle
the achievments of previous administrations, but none of them faced the
serious problems we have now.

Each president has had a share of grief - some more than others (we are
sorry, Joy!), but you have really been given a full load. How can we
convince you to stay?

E
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Thank you for that.

Elaine

>This experience tells me that by abandoning the ICG, the stronger chapters
>by
>default abandon our weaker members and chapters, and all of our non-member
>costumers and fans.

>Granted, the ICG has had its troubles. But I know of no group without them.
>But there would be no Utah guild without the ICG, so I for one want to see
>it
>continue. I hope other chapters feel the same way.
>
>And unlike the CFO, who's president was a major part of its problems, our
>ICG
>president, Byron, has been remarkably candid, extremely committed and as
>regular as clockwork in reporting to us chapters. I don't think the ICG
>could
>have a finer president in this tough time. I too hope he reconsiders.
>
>David Doering
>President
>Utah Costumers Guild
>

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To all subscribers:

the first quarter of 2000 were mailed out to all individuals. None were
sent out to any of the chapters. They were not on my mailing list. Byron
informed me that each chapter should receive a copy. The 1st issue for the
chapters were mailed with the second issue but I ran out of second issues
for some and had to reprint extras. The chapters were among the reprinting.
These are now labeled and sitting in our garage with the 1999 issue. Also
there are the 1999 chapter issues.

So to recap. Individuals got the first and second issue of 2000.
Chapters got first issue of 2000.

In garage are the 1999 for everyone and the second issue for the chapters.

Sorry for all the confusion. It was my mistake.

Dora

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A

>I'm all in favor of j/a/c/k/i/n/g/ /u/p/ raising the membership rates to
>a reasonable level and bringing the CQ subscription back into the
>central "cost" of membership. Say $20 a year.
>
>It's a major change to the way the ICG is organized, but I'm also in
>favor of centralizing membership. To become a member of the ICG you
>send your money to the ICG, you get a card, button, certificate,
>whatever and a subscription to the CQ. In the future maybe we'll do a
>monthly newsletter, get you discounts at chain craft and fabric stores,
>mail order houses, and member businesses (hey, a new class of membership
>to boot), etc, etc
>
>The Local Chapters can add the option of becoming a member of the ICG
>via the LC and for every member that they sign-up, the ICG kickbacks
>some portion of the ICG membership fee to the LC. Say $5, this still
>leaves more then the CQ cost.
>
>I would also add a multi-year option. Become a member for 2 years it's
>$35, 3-$50, 5-$80, Lifetime-25x1 year rate (that might get us some quick
>$500 checks).
>
>Just my $20 worth of commentary. ;)
>
> JohnO

For information, the American Sewing Guild operates on a similar basis.
Members send their memberships directly to the national office. National
sends a portion of the membership amount (I'm not sure of the amount) to
the local chapter which serves as the membership dues.

Having said that, I'm not sure how the local chapters would respond to a
similar arrangement for the ICG.

Pierre

>

A our ICG

>president, Byron, has been remarkably candid, extremely committed and as
>regular as clockwork in reporting to us chapters. I don't think the ICG

could

>have a finer president in this tough time. I too hope he reconsiders.
>
>David Doering
>President
>Utah Costumers Guild
>

I agree completely!

Unfortunately, Sandy and I were getting ready to go to a wedding when this
all broke. Bruce Mai called us but I was already on the way to bed and we
were leaving directly from work the next day.

Byron, you have my complete support. The current difficulties are the
result of a snowball effect of many years development. ( In hindsight many
of the reasons are clear. Unfortunately, foresight is not nearly so
perfect. ) You are not to blame here and have been doing everything
possible to correct the problems.

I hope you reconsider. Even if you decide to remain "resigned", you are
still a dear friend and a powerful force in this community. Your opinions
and thoughts are valued.

Pierre

>At no point since 1992 have we received any receipt or formal note that
>payment has been received in spite of requests. The requests have dwindled
>over recent years - apathy sets in easily in such circumstances. Let us
>just hope that the Australian Taxation Office which is far harsher than its
>North American counterparts do not decide to audit us.
>
>In fact, from the beginning, getting any information from the ICG about
>payment amounts, payment times and payment addresses has been almost
>impossible. Delays, arm-twisting and something bordering on nagging have
>worn down local board members given the task.

I will agree. We really need to make information flow both ways. I will
propose that we develop forms that be supplied to all chapters. This form
would be filled out and accompany each payment to the ICG. In response,
the treasurer would, upon receipt and verification, send a receipt to the
chapter verifying reception. Sharon, you would propably be the best one to
develop such a system.

Pierre

Dear list,

Part of the CQ's problems has been a lack of contributions. How about the
following as a solution to that part:

In addition to whatever fee is payable to receive the Quarterly, each
chapter must submit a set number of contributions each year - say 3 or 4
each year - or be seen as defaulters. These should be new items, not
reprints from thier own newsletters.

Obviously, not all of these submissions will be usable but many will be;
will ensure a backlog of items; and, inevitably, increase the quality of
items appearing. It will also allow a wider reflection of interests and
activities of our varied chapters.

A further side-benefit is the communication it will encourage within
individual chapters, and will give members a greater opportunity and
impetus to become involved in their art and the guild.

-C.